Innovator54. I have been out of posting for about 2plus weeks.
You mentioned that your son already had Min. Invasive Surgery and did not have success.
From my understanding of Min. Invasive Surgery, the spine surgeon can only deal with two vertebrae via small incision and using the cannula for entry to the site. Two vertebrae, I'm told by my doctor, is considered as One Level. They can go in and take care of the higher one and the lower one (vertebrae)

From what you identified on your listing of your son's problem, I would guess, just guess now, because I am not a doctor, going the laser surgery route would mean more then one surgery like Joebob and Carrianne had. I believe Carrianne has said Bonati wanted to do more surgery but she is putting it off for the present. And Carrianne did have some struggles post op to deal with because of dura nicks.

I am curious just what was done on your son's first Min. Invasive Surgical procedure. Were the areas that you addressed in your previous post the location of that previous surgery? I don't know any surgeons in my locale who do Min. Invasive Surgery on Two Levels all at one operation. I would suspect if the MRI is correctly identifying if you go to Bonati, they would advise two surgeries....much like Joebob. Has any doctor taken a flexion/extention X-Ray to rule out spondy...spine slippage in that area.
Your son is young and I don't know if you mentioned if his spine problem was the result of physical activity, eg. accident or athletics or laboring. All of these things come into play upon why that area goes haywire.

You and your son are at a difficult decision making time. If you have researched spine problems where you think that laser surgery will be the best choice then stay with that decision. I have always told Rick, Carol and those who stand on the brink of "do I go for surgery or not" that no matter how much research one does when that final decision comes around it is a throw of the dice because until a doctor goes in and looks, all the he is basing his decisions on are the patient's identified symptoms, his overall competence and making his best educated guess as to solving the problem. The Mri, a diagnostic tool only, is just a part of identifying the patient in pain's problem.

As I see it, you are suffering because your child is suffering. I would rather go through all of this then see my child go through what I have had to do in the last year. And heaven only knows just how well my decision is going to work for me over time. I will try to change my hectic lifestyle, but I am not a 22 year old anymore and the rest is in God's hands.

Keep communicating. We each have our own opinions about how we should proceed and why we chose not to go in one direction or another.
What you share about your son will help others who are on this miserable spinal journey.

Yes, Joe Bob seems to have had a wonderful result. But even Joebob said that he is not back at 100 percent. None of us may ever be. All we hope for is No Pain.

Marie B.

Hi Rich,
No I did not assume that the DX from both Bonati and LSI were wrong. They WHERE wrong, completely wrong. There is nothing wrong with my C level spine what so ever. My spinal issues where with the L4,L5,S1 only, with a bit of arthritis in the L4.

Both facilities said the exact opposite and none of my symptoms where something that would be from the middle spine area either.

A new MRI done 1 month ago, showed some spread of the arthritis within the L3-5 which is causing a bit of difficulty healing that torn muscle I have and an accident has caused a problem with the L3 disc that is doing well after a selective nerve block and we will decide at a future date if anything further needs to be done about it.

The rest of my spine is as clear as it was on the first MRI. And the laminotomy done on the L4,L5,S1 is a successful surgery, with no compression of the nerves, they are as free as possible; and I have only had 1 spinal surgery, thought I have quite a few other surgeries over my almost 57 years of life.

My surgery was partly an emergency as I lost bladder control due to the compression of the nerves in the L4,L5,S1. which is where my stenosis was. There was and still is no stenosis evident in the thoracic area of my spine as was said by these facilities, who also said my lumbar vertebrae where clear of any problems.

Post surgery, I did develop other problems that are common to those that have had spinal surgery. tendon and nerve with the feet that where corrected with a foot and ankle orthopedic doc, good shoes, custom orthotics and PT.

My eye problems are also a common after affect of spinal surgery and the position that you are in as well as the age of the patient and their potential to develop things like floaters in the eyes, weakened retinas etc.

My conventional surgery was a 1 inch incision, partial laminotomy, shaving of the lateral recess, which is the ignored part of spinal surgery in most cases that result in failed decompression, one stitch to close the incision, less than 9 hour hospital stay, I walked out of the hospital pain free and have been so since my surgery, for the problem I had. that was almost 16 months ago.

Until the accident I had and the torn muscle, I have had my life back, full gardening, walking, shopping, driving, working.

My decision to have the surgery I had was based on many reasons, including what I know to be, incorrect DX from these facilities, along with the massive costs that they charge, no ins to cover the expense and no possible way to pay for them on my own. Also, other underlying medical conditions, require full involvement with my primary care physician, my orthopedic doctor that healed my tendon problems in my arms, careful monitoring of my asthma, and my difficulty tolerating medications and problems with too many steroids including steroid injections.

My choices where best for me and others may and will make the choice to use the laser surgery facilities.

It's just my opinion that there seems to be a real belief that they are miracle workers and can and will prevent the need for any kind of conventional spinal surgeries and I don't think that should be the belief.

One does hear about failed conventional spinal surgeries, but they do not hear anything about failed spinal laser surgeries. All that is ever posted on their sites and read about is the success and there should be info on the failures as well so that it is not misleading to those that are seeking help and trying to make a good, safe, informed decision.

My post was not to condemn either facility but to point out that they are not as perfect as their websites make them appear to be

I hope those that do have laser spine surgery have success and it lasts for them, the same as I wish for those that make the choice to have conventional surgery.
We all need to do the research and make the best choices we can for ourselves.

Innovator, I wish the best for your son and I don't know, if I where in yours or his shoes, what choices I would make.

You and he have made the choices you have and feel they are the best ones.

I am skeptical of the laser spine surgery, and I will be till I see and hear about long term studies and the success rates over the long term.

The fact that I posted my experience is information that should be known by anyone considering this type of surgery, the same as others have posted on various forums about failed conventional surgery or poor outcomes from various other facilities.
That is not a post against laser spinal surgery, just information that I would want when making a decision on any kind of surgery.

I'm glad that you have had good experiences and as I said, I hope for success for your son.

I also hope that you will continue to post and provide updates as to how your son is doing. I wish him the best and successful surgery with them.

Fran

I appreciate all the posts from Fran, RichT and Marie and do respect all your opinions and experiences. You guys have gone through the pain not me. I am living it second hand with my son.
For your info I quit a very lucrative; executive position to move to where my son is to help him get back on his feet. I am dipping heavily into funds to get him back to where he may be able to get some kind of life again.
As stated previously, he has two children and a great; supportive wife.

First of all, I want to apologize to Fran for overreacting. Reaching decisions has been very nerve racking and very expensive.
My son is now close to financial ruin and still in back pain. I am trying to help him see some light at the end of tunnel.

Marie ask what surgery he had. He had a discectomy at L5/S1 ; one inch incision and did well for a year. From my understanding the nerve is now impinged by scar tissue causing some of the pain.
He also now has problems at L3/4, L4/5 and now L5/S1 again. This was all shown in MRIs done by conventional doctors and then confirmed by Bonati and Laser Spine Institute.

I personally have done a lot of research and have contacted many conventional and Laser Surgery facilities including three Laser Spine facilities in Florida (Bonati, LSI and Microspine). I ruled out Microspine immediately when they stated they only needed written findings of the MRI.

Though the diagnosis from LSI was correct I was concerned about their cattle approach to running patients through. There were some other minor issues but they all added up to not using them.

Bonati on the other hand has been very straight forward. They were very easy to deal with and have been very timely on all aspects of the process.

My son has been scheduled for three surgeries. First surgery facets, second L5/S1 and lastly L4/5. Both L5/S1 and L4/5 are considered severe conditions. Two surgeries will occur in Dec and the last one in Jan due to the holidays.

Innovator54

Hi everyone!

In reading the different opinions on laser surgery and conventional surgery all that could comes to mind is that we are all so unique, as are our conditions. Just think, with almost 7,000,000,000 people in this world not one looks exactly like another. Our spines are no different, nor are the treatments that will or will not work for us. When it comes down to it, we just have to listen to our hearts and let God take it from there.

Just a couple little things I noticed in the posts that I'd like to touch on, first being the cost of laser facilities. Of the tens of thousands of dollars billed to my insurance company, all I was refused was $648 which Bonati kindly reduced by 50% for me if I could pay in full. That plus my $1500 out of pocket max was all I paid (I had already met my deductible). We must keep in mind that insurance companies are a large part of why facilities charge what they do. And if we are being charged a high amount, we can't forget that our insurance plans play a big role as well. Bonati bases their charges on their experiences with insurance companies in the past.

Also, the number of surgeries required for each person touched me a bit. With laser surgery, please remember that they (at Bonati) only work on 1 disc and 1 side of each disc at a time. So if you have 1 disc that is affected, you may need 2 surgeries to treat the entire disc. Dr. Bonati never told me I needed 4 surgeries. That was the worst case scenario. He did the first and wanted to wait 6 months before deciding whether or not to do another. He wanted to avoid unnecessary surgery. I actually wanted the second because my legs felt no relief after the first. I may need 2 more, but that is entirely on my recovery.

On a progress note, I have reached 3 months since my surgery and was cleared to begin physical therapy. I start next week. I told him I still have some pain (not as much as before) and he said because of the leak (which is also common in conventional methods) I should give it 3 more months before I decide whether or not to go back in and be reevaluated.

I'm looking forward to it and just trusting God on this one. It's not about my will anymore, no matter how this all pans out in the end.

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Hello Spiney Friends.

I don't know much about how each of us react to what we are dealing with emotionally. But in spite of all of our researches and communications, hearing everyone talk, I have concluded that a lot of us are working out of pain and fear as we deal with our condition.

Oh how I wish we had advanced to the stage of medicine that I use to see on Star Trek. There was always someone in the "hospital" on the Star Ship. All I would ever see the doctor and nurse do was wave a magic wand over the bodies of some of the badly injured. That wand could take temp. bp. and all necessary data on the body. But it also had what we would call "magical qualities. Whatever that wand contained, if you were not dying, you were cured. Some day some type of medical innovations may get us to that point in surgery. But this is not for us at the present.

I can just tell you that with all of the surgeries I have had and this the most recent spine surgery, I have grown in my capacity to have great compassion to the suffering people experience. The Christian religion tells us that this is a grace. Kind of sounds like the statement "No Pain, No Gain." although that statement doesn't refer to the spiritual side.
I can't tell you how my heart went out to Carrianne and her mother when she was suffering so much. And there was dragonfly. Whew! if you wanted a hold on surgery al you had to do was think about those cervical problems.

When you read the old Forum, Joe Bob set out with such a postitive attitude in his decision to go to Bonati that I think his posts were what gave so many of us such hope for our spine problem and looked to Bonati or Laser Surgery as a way out of pain.

As I have read the many posts over the last 7 months, I think Joe Bob's surgery was a success but I really haven't read such a resounding success on too many people. I still couldn't believe that he went to Tampa Airport, got on a plane and flew home. He did that after, I thinik, the 2nd week. I have completed the second week. I haven't gone out of the house yet. I am just happy that I can do small jobs around the house.
I wake at night about ever hour on the hour because my back says, "Its time to roll to the other side. I am just beginning to lay on my back for short moments. It is not because of pain but because of all of the stress in the muscles, tendons and nerves surrounding the surgical site. JoeBob did menion "stiffness." This is definitely "stiffness". Walking helps lots.
But you can't stand on your feet...at least at my age for 8 hours in a row.

So when you have this type surgery done, don't think it is a magical pill.

My hubby was dead set against our going to Florida for laser surgery.
I had spondy and the laser sites make it very clear they do not deal with spondy.
He also thought it was a risk to go somewhere so far away and have no backup for the post op difficulties.

Fran has been a major research for information for a lot of us. She fills in little details. If she says she got a wrong DX from the laser ceners, then that is what happened. From reading her post, they were in an entirely different part of the spine from where the stenosis was located. Heck, we hear all the time about wrong arms, wrong legs being removed and in some body areas, wrong things done to patients. That's why lawyers love this field. They have increased the patient costs tremendously. It is entirely possible that somewhere along the line, the agents who assist in the flow of information at the laser sites could have made a mistake read the wrong chart, put the wrong name on the report. It can happen. I would never have decided for laser unless I had made a trip to the institutes and eyeballed the doctors on a one to one basis and I would have bored in on "why the mistake". But sometimes the "pain" will not allow us to inspect in great detail these distant institutes. I wish I have the advantages of being so close as Carrianne is.
If I had been able to go to Bonati, I would have asked for permission for Carrianne to come hold my hand during the surgery. She's been there. She knows.

Now Rich and I are in the upper ages. I don't know how he has made the compromise not to have surgery. If I remember correctly, Rich would have chosen laser surgery if the $$$$$were all set up like ducks in a row.
And Rich, in some future post, I would like to talk to you about insurances.
I know the subject was approached in the past on the Old Forum but it might be more informative for some if we got down to a little more detail.

It is too bad we don't have a record of the posters from the past Forum because they were very energetic about getting information.

Hey LoneStar Guy, Are you doing O.K.?

Marie B

Hi,

T have posted here a few times but have just spent a great deal of time reading and catching up on the posts. I have been struggling with what to do regarding having surgery. I have scheduled and cancelled minimally invasive surgery 2 times. I am heading down to both LSI and Bonati to talk with them this Friday. I am uncertain as to what to do. I was all set to have the surgery in September at Bonati ( we live in NY, but have a home in Ocala, FL also) but couldn't get a good price on plane fare. I cancelled (in August) and tried to rescedule for Nov but was told that policy had changed regarding out of network benefits and that instead of just paying my co-pays I would be required to pay a fee of an additional $5000. for each surgery they would do. They recommended 2 surgeries. I know that LSI does not accept any insurance but total costs would end up being aobut the same as LSI sys they can do everything with one surgery. How does anyone really know if you are making the right decsion. My neurosurgeon says maybe an 80% chance of pain free but then also says I may not get relief. I have had 2 neuro consults and I guess I just don't know which way to go. I will see on Friday what both places have to say.

Marie,
I teared up when I read your post. I would have gladly been there to hold your hand just as MJ was there holding mine before my second blood patch!! I wanted to show her how I much I appreciated her support, but I just didn't have the energy to even stand up. That was when I vowed I'd be there to help anyone who goes to Bonati, or LSI also. Point is, no matter what direction our hearts tell us to go, we need all the support we can get!!

Innovator,
that goes out to you and your family as well. I'd love to help however I can. I am still looking for churches and restaurants for you, haven't forgotten.


mbc1,
Best wishes to you this Friday at Bonati and LSI. I know the decision is a hard one to make. Sometimes doing so much research makes the decision that much harder because there's more to sort through, but in the end, research is the best thing to do! Hopefully one thing will stand out to you as being "the one" for you.

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Innovator,

Good morning! I did a little searching around and found some Baptist churches, but wasn't able to find out whether some are traditional or more contemporary. I found about 7 that are less than 6 miles from The Bonati Institute.

I also have a few recommendations for restaurants, 2 of which I ate at and they were wonderful. They're all less than 2.5 miles from The Bonati Institute.

I'm not sure what the stipulations are on this forum for posting names of businesses and addresses or phone numbers, so I sent you a personal message to be safe. It was the first time I've sent a personal message, so please let me know you got it ok.

Have a happy day and please let your son we're all thinking of and praying for him!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Hello Guy,

Nice thoughts and advice to Marie,

And how are you doing thiese days? Hope things are going well for you.

Take care.

RichT

Hello Fran,

Thanks for the additional information. Sure hope that torn muscle heals well.

I especially liked your encouragement to Innovator to post updates on his son as he goes through surgery and recovery.

Have a WONDERFUL Day!!!!

Hello Innovator,

Tomorrow is December 1st. A most important month for your son, you and your families. I hope and pray that this coming Christmas will be a very special and uplifting one. May your son's surgery be successful and his recovery likewise. Your Christmas gift to your son is AWESOME!!!

Take care. A very special dad you are.

RichT

Hello Carrianne,

I really liked your thoughts that you shared with us in your Nov 28 post. EXCELLENT.

So very nice of you to look into churches and restaurants for Innovator and his son. I'm sure they are really looking forward to meeting you and "feeling" the support you are and will be giving to them.

"I'm looking forward to it and just trusting God on this one. It's not about my will anymore, no matter how this all pans out in the end." YES!!! Your faith has and will see you through.

Have a GREAT Weekend.

RichT

Hello MBC,

So nice to see your post and your update.

Today you are at Bonati and LSI. I hope your visits go well and that your discussions with them will help you in your decision making. My thoughts are with you today.

On December 11th I will be seeing my spine surgeon. The one who recommends I have surgery by the end of January. I'm looking forward to our discussions and at the same time a bit apprehensive. Thank goodness the support of my PM doc, other doctors and my current ability to do the majority of things I want and like to do will all help in guiding in the right decision at this time.

Regarding insurance - To clarify, LSI and Bonati both accept health insurance. It all depends on the insurance you have, etc. See my following post to Marie for a bit more. I'm sure at both LSI and Bonati today they will be able to tell you how your health insurance benefits will be accepted by them.

Take care.

RichT

Hello Marie,

Last, but not least.

Thanks for your thoughts that you have shared with us.

"But in spite of all of our researches and communications, hearing everyone talk, I have concluded that a lot of us are working out of pain and fear as we deal with our condition." Marie, that may be true for some, however, I know it is not the case for me and for some others. For me all the research, communication and all really helps me in my decision making. All the information one gleans does not necessarily make the decision any easier, but at least I (we) can have the comfort knowing we have done our homework well in preparing us for a decision. Just my thoughts.

I REALLY liked your take off on Star Trek. Would be nice to have that "magic", but as we know that is not reality. However, all I need to do is watch a medical documentary and marvel at the advances in medicine that are being made. Truly blows my mind away.

Your thoughts on religion/faith, and Joe's successes and the hope it gave to us were EXCELLENT. Super food for thought.

"Now Rich and I are in the upper ages. I don't know how he has made the compromise not to have surgery." I'm more "upper" than you are. LOL

About compromises - It has taken months for me to go through the process of sorting things out for myself. I feel very comfortable with my "standing" at this time. (My spine surgeon sure the heck better not unravel things on the 11th though I'm sure he will try.) As you know gardening is my number one enjoyment. That means a lot of bending twisting and lifting. (Like a 75lb shrub two days ago.) I don't want to give up any of that because of the restrictions surgery would most likely cause. Compromises? Sure!!! I can't stand in one location for more than a few minutes. I can't sit in uncomfortable chairs, I can only sleep on a air mattress. Howvere Marie, for years now I have been making "compromises". I have severe tinnitus in my left ear. That means not being in crowds. The sound of all those voices and the distortion of the sound from their voices will drive my ear and I up a wall in a matter of seconds. It also means no loud noises like in movies, leaf blowers, etc. No concerts and no noisy restaurants. So Marie, I've come to accept my lifestyle "compromises". Though it does bother me that I can't go to concerts etc. with my wife, thank goodness she is very understanding AND does those activities she likes without me. Also, I'm "blessed" in that crowds of people have never been my thing even when I was young. I much prefer the quiet of my study or working in our gardens.

Until my back does not permit me to do the things I like to do in our gardens, and keeps me from enjoying the food and wine at a fine QUIET restaurant I'm staying away from the knife.

Now to my experience with Bonati and LSI regarding insurance - My first choice (if I should deside to have laser spine surgery) would be Bonati. Unfortunately they do not accept Medicare, and they do not accept the private secondary health insurance that I have. LSI on the other hand will accept Medicare AND my private health insurance. My out of pocket expenses with LSI was quoted to me at $12,900. So is the "insurance" issue for me with Bonati and LSI. I hope that clarifies things.

If you (or others) have questions on the above do let me know.

Marie, I hope and pray that each day helps you in your recovery from surgery. AND that all is a success for you.

Have a Wonderful Day!!

RichT

Rich, You have ringing in the ears. Have you been diagnosed as having Meniere's Disease? I have it in both ears. I call it, "The Screaming Meemeeme's? I have had it for years.

My husband put an article in my hands yesterday. It was by a woman who was writing to Peter Gott, M.D. , Family Doctor. Q & A follows.

Q: I am m81 years old, I have suffered with Meniere's disease since I was 30
years old. I saw Lip-Flavonoid on television. I have not had one day of dizziness. I swear by this product.

A. Lipo-Flavonoid effectively lessens tinnitus. Meniere's disease (vertigo)
dizziness, loss of hearing and tinnitus) can be disruptive, as you know.
I am printing your letter in hopes that your experience will help other
readers.
Peter Gott, M.D.

This is the first time I've read of anything to help tinnitis. Most of the Dr.'s around here tell me to "live with it."
You may want to check with your PCP about it and make sure it doesn't
interfere with your other meds if you try it.

Marie B.

Hello Marie,

WOW, you responded very quickly. Hope that indicates you are having a good day!!!

You are SOOOOooooo RIGHT!!!! The Screaming Meemeeme's it is. Sorry to read that you too have to suffer with this D@MN constant ringing. It is only the "volume" that changes.

Thanks for the information that your husband shared with you. I will check it out. It is fascinating that a lipo-flavonoid would lessen tinnitus.

No dizziness here, just that D@MN constant ringing.

Maybe a couple glasses of wine will help "deaden" the ringing for you. I've tried at least a couple glasses of wine, and it doesn't seem to help, however, I still enjoy the wine!!! LOL

RichT

Hello Marie,

I did a bit of "Googling" and would suggest you go to the following link

*Link removed

To me the first response really says it all. Its that ole placebo effect again, and possibly worse.

At this time I think I'll pass.

RichT

Oh yes, and to quote an audiologist on another web site "I have never found any OTC to help tinnitus." This was in response to a question about Lipoflavonoid supplement for tinnitus.

Another one of those supplement scams it seems.

Sorry moderator for getting off topic. Now back to the subject at hand.

Just noticed my link has already been removed. If you want to see it send me a PM.

RichT

Carrianne:

I did receive the private email you sent me. I did send a response with some contact information while I am in Hudson at Bonati.
Please let me know if you received the private message.

Thanks for the information.
I hope you are doing well and I hope to touch base with you in Florida.

Best Regards
Innovator54

Innovator,

Yes, I did receive your private message and responded today. We look forward to meeting you and your family!

I really hope that you will have a great experience at The Bonati Institute. Yes, the first few days will be filled with MRIs and other tests. Bring a good book and that will help!!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne