Hello All,

Had my visit with my PM doc today. He was happy to hear that the 2nd epidural injection is definitely helping. I told him that infrequently after I get out of bed in the morning I have a "tight" feeling in the lower part of my leg. Only lasts a few minutes. He said it is related to my spine issues, but he didn't seem concerned.

He recommended I see a "Therapeautic massage and bodywork" fellow. Sounds a bit weird, but I"ll play the game and see what happens.

I asked my PM doc as to his thoughts about spinal surgery. His reply was swift "NO WAY (do you need surgery at this time)".

Asked him about the pluses and minuses about delaying surgery. His response "Not a question to even think about". He had this strange look on his face and asked "Do you want surgery?" I said NO, I just wanted to get his thoughts.

Oh yes, also asked him if in the near future I needed to have another MRI taken being it is getting close to a year since the last one. He said I only need to have another MRI when things get worse.

Next appointment is in March.

In December I have an appointment with the spine surgeon who wants me to have surgery by the end of January. (Hence my questions to my PM Doc.) Should be a most interesting "visit". How do I say kindly "Keep your d#mn knife away from me." LOL

Have a most enjoyable Thanksgiving. Yes, even us spineys have much to be thankful for.

RichT

hurtingirl:


RichT, Carrianne and JoeBob and others are are a welath of information on this site. I am fairly new.
My son is scheduled to go to Bonati from Dec 7th to Dec 22nd.

He will have two surgeries, The first surgery will be Dec 12th and the second the 19th. My son has the following issues:

Bulge at: L3/4, L4/5 (severe), L5/S1 (severe),
Degenerative disc disease at: L3/4, L4/5, L5/S1,
Foraminal narrowing at: L3/4, L4/5, L5/S1,
Degenerative facet disease at: L3/4, L4/5, L5/S1

Carrianne and JoeBob have had surgery at Bonati with good results.
I beleive if you read through the psots they have made you will see what they have posted. I believe if you start with around page 4 of the 30 pages you will find good reading.

They might be willing to share with you there story if you post to them but this site has very good information and actual patients such as Carrianne and Joebob who gave day to day blows of what was occuring with them.

Once my son gets to Bonati I will give a summary of each day. This will include the positive and the negative, if any.

Good luck to you with your back. You will find tremendous support at this site as I have.
I will be glad to answer any questions I can but RichT and others are a wealth of knowledge also and certainly can point you in a direction.
By the way, Epidurals were not working for my son either and this is why we are at the point we are with Laser Spine Surgery.

Innovator54

Just wanting to wish everyone a Happy Thanksgiving and a warm welcome to our new members.

Welcome to our "happy spiney family" that does sound weird, doesn't it?

I will post more, later this week.

Marie, so sorry you had such a long wait for your surgery, and had the shock of seeing our "spiney surgical table". We have no choice in the use of it, and it is needed to have the surgery done and be done safely.

I hope you are beginning to feel a bit better now, and hopefully you will be able to enjoy a bit of thanksgiving dinner.

Looking forward to hearing more details and just e-mail me any time.

Fran

Hello Hurtingirl,

Thanks for the info regarding your injections.

I hope the injections keep me rolling for the next two years, though tonight I'm not sure. Hopefully just one of those "bad weather" nights.

Have a WONDERFUL Thanksgiving.

RichT

Carrianne:

Thanks for the offer of help while in Tampa Bay.

My son an I are both religious. We do attend a middle of the road Baptist Church. Not to conservative. Do you know of a church in the area we could attend while in Tampa from Dec 6 th thru Dec 22nd?

I would be very pleased if you could provide a couple of nice restaurants near Hudson. I do have a business associate coming in from Hong Kong from Dec 7th thru the 9th and would like to take him to a nice restaurant. Not to fancy but nice.

I thought it also might be nice if my son and I could meet you while in Tampa. I am not quite sure how to arrange this now but I can tell you right now we have an appt at 10:30 at Bonati on Friday Dec 7th and my name is Norm. Probably not a good idea to share phone numbers or email addresses on line.

I know meeting you may be a lot to ask but if all possible I think it would be great for my son to talk to someone who has gone through the surgery and is doing fairly well. If you can not meet us then I will understand.

Anyway. I hope you had a good Thanksgiving like I did. My son's wife made all the food including Turkey. I spoiled my two grandchildren for several hours, worked them into a frenzy and then left my son and his wife to pick up the pieces. This is what grandparents are for and I enjoy it.


Best Regards
Innovator54

Hi everybody...Carriane, Marie, RichT, Fran and all the new posters
It's been a while since I was on due to relocating from the Island to our daughters while my hubby was getting his radiation.

It's was interesting reading the comments by Innovator about the attitude of doctors towards Laser Spine Surgery. I received a denial for insurance coverage on the basis of the opinion of a so-called "expert" Orthopaedic Surgeon. This particular Dr. has never observed Laser Spine Surgery and knows absolutely nothing about it yet he is considered an "expert". Anyhow I have appealed the decision citing the 1000 Laser Surgeries done by Dr. Wolf at LSI in Tampa, and I included the info of his being named in the top 5% of U.S. Drs. in 2005 and 2006. I pointed out that perhaps they should consult that type of "expert" before turning me down. I am still awaiting a decision and it has been over 2 months since I provided them with all kinds of date supporting Laser Spine Surgery. Anyhow...I plan to have the surgery regardless even if I have to scrape the bottom of the barrel financially because I can't go on living in this pain. I'm sick and tired of changing meds, too. Seems after a period of time I begin to develop weird side-effects...hot spells, weakness, stomach pains, etc. Anyhow...I am trusting God to help things to work out, and will be watching with interest the results of your son's surgery at Bonati, Innovator. Will be interested in your updates.

Marie, am glad that your surgery is over and wish you a speedy recovery and freedom from pain.
Mare

Hello Mare,

It was so very nice to see your post. Welcome back.

Mare, how is your husband doing since his radiation treatments? I hope they have helped him, though it is not a pleasant thing to go through.

Sorry to read that your back pain is still so very bad.

And you have confirmed exactly what Innovator has said. Most unfortunately so. That socalled "expert" certainly had his biases. I certainly hope that with all the solid information and data you have provided to the insurance company they will now look favorably upon you having laser spine surgery.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and your husband.

Take care.

RichT

Mare:

I am sorry to hear your insurance was denied. Just my opinion, but a lot of times people tend to beleive what professional athletes have to say about different issues. Peter Jacobsen (Professional golf) now promotes the LSI Institute. He had three surgeries there and is now back to playing professional golf. He has formed a partnership with LSI based on his positive results from his surgeries there.

If you want info on his surgery just type in "Peter Jaconsen Laser Spine Surgery" doing a search on google and lots of info will come up.
Maybe your insurance underwriter would enjoy talking to Peter. They tend to enjoy talking to sports personalities over the average "joe" and tend to believe them.

On a second note: Bonati has added another Doctor. I liked his quote on why he joined. Here is his quote:

As to why he joined the staff of The Bonati Institute, Dr. Grossmith stated that: "Over the past few years, I have been following the remarkable results that this facility and these procedures have produced. The results have further convinced me that these minimally-invasive arthroscopic procedures are presently the best option for relieving pain from stenosis, herniated discs and degenerative disc disease, and that these procedures will become the world-wide standard in the near future."

Mare, you have a lot going on in your family right now. I wish you the best and hope and pray your issues improve soon.

Innovator54

Innovator,
I would be honored to meet you and your son while you're here in Florida and answer any questions you may have. Like I wrote in a previous post, your son and I have almost the same diagnosis (with the exception of L3/L4). Weekends are best for us simply because we work full time and don't get home until 6:30 during the week. Saturday evening or Sunday afternoon would be ideal if that would work for you.

I will definitely check into churches and restaurants for you as well. I'm not greatly familiar with the area as Tampa is about an hour from Hudson, but I have a very resourceful relative who lives close to The Bonati Institute. That is where I stayed for my surgeries.

Yes, Thanksgiving was wonderful for me too. I spent it with my husband's family (all 40 of them) and ate a ton! Only bad thing about not cooking it yourself is no leftovers! hee hee

God bless you and yours!
Carrianne

Hi everyone!

Just to add to Innovator's quote from The Bonati Institute's new doctor, when I saw Dr. Moffatt before being assigned to Dr. Bonati for my surgery he told me he joined the team at The Bonati Institute because he was doing so many fusions before and wasn't seeing the kind of results to keep him doing them. Really shows the passion that the team has for this technique.

Hope you all had a wonderful Thanksgiving! We sure do have a lot to be thankful for!!

Hello Carrianne,

Thanks for sharing why Dr Moffatt joined the Bonati Institute. Just helps give me more "backing" when I see my spine surgeon (who wants to do 2 fusions) and tell him I've decided against his knife.

Thank goodness for the sharing of experiences, thoughts and information that everyone gives so very openly. It really helps in deciding the direction to go or not go.

RichT

Hello Innovator,

"On a second note: Bonati has added another Doctor. I liked his quote on why he joined. Here is his quote:

As to why he joined the staff of The Bonati Institute, Dr. Grossmith stated that: "Over the past few years, I have been following the remarkable results that this facility and these procedures have produced. The results have further convinced me that these minimally-invasive arthroscopic procedures are presently the best option for relieving pain from stenosis, herniated discs and degenerative disc disease, and that these procedures will become the world-wide standard in the near future.""

THANKS for sharing Dr. Grossmith's thoughts as to why he joined the Bonati Institute. When and if that time comes when I need surgery my first option will definitely be the Bonati Institute or LSI.

I trust all is going well in your preparation for you and your son's "visit" to Florida. We all will look forward to your "reports". May he have a most successful surgery. He well be in the good hands of his surgeon, and the guiding hands of the good Lord.

It will be so nice for your son, you, and Carrianne to meet. I remember Joe saying one time that we all need to meet at Bonati's for a REAL party.

Take care.

RichT

Hi Everyone. I will have to make this short. I am not allowed to sit for long periods of time at the computer or anywhere else for that matter.

Came out of surgery Friday evening. Found out the hospital called that DAy One. Saturday, Day 2 I was struggling to learn how to climb out of bed in proper position so as not to stress the area of Fusion L4 & L5. That was the toughest. Went on to walk around room and to BR and the nurses insisted on my using a walker with wheels to prevent any accidents. I was given IV's with antibiotics Friday and Saturday. Sunday, Day 3, I left the hospital at Noon.

Slept the entire way home. Was I glad to get home. I hate hospitals.

Had Rx for Percocet. Learned that a bed with memory foam is not a good bed in the beginning for trying to climb out of or getting into and stay in proper position to not stress Fusion. I ended up going to the room where my 20 year old mattress Sterns & Foster gave the necessary resistence when I pushed to lift myself. Hubby also purchased Jay Bars for each side of my bed. He even bought some arm railing for the regular toilet so there was no stress raising and lowering myself. It was the Coleman Camping Portable Potty he put in my room that was the best. Soon I was a real veteran at getting in and out of the bed. Running around with my walker on wheels. Hubby had to call out to the staying with me daughters, "Watch out, Mom's doing wheelies around the kitchen!" I was great. Day 5 6 & 7 I learned that I could not sit and then go walking. The muscles and tendons which are moved away from the spine in minimally invasive surgery would go spastic and the pain was horrific. Learning to go from a lying position to walking was the key. But that is all healed and by Day 8 I began the slow improvement on getting around. I liked being taken care of by my daughters. I did have to remind them that this particular surgery, although rough, did not mean that I was handing on the Torch. I had to remind all daughters that I was still in charge...just out of it for a short period. They wanted to feed me, dress me and all of those things but you know, one has to learn to do those things without bending or twisting.

Rich, and Carol. If you want to know how a Fusion feels. In the beginning, I pictured a 4 by 6" board pasted to my lower back. That has eased dramatically in the last few days. I have to be careful not to overdo. My personality is to overdo everything. While the girls were with me, there was the daily march around the house directing beds to be made, clothes to the wash, ironing, cooking and all of those kinds of things. Hubby said it looked like a parade going up and down the halls to the accompaniment of the rumble of my rolling walker.

Doing well. Not up to full strength yet. "Course when you are my age, some people would think this level of activity was normal, but not me.
I have places to go, things to do, people to see.

Yes Rich. In spite of some intense pain moments, I am glad I had the surgery. I can now walk with no pain. My strongest pill is now Tylenol X-tra Strength. My doctor thinks I am a grand success. I told him not to think that way until after I returned from Disney World. With all of these Laser surgery people that must be on the list of things to do.

Will get back to posting more soon. My time at the computer is up and there is a cacophony of noise in the background telling me to get off my bum.

Marie B.

Well, girl, I got your e-mail and you posted before I had a chance to do it for you as you requested. So here's to you




Welcome back and so glad to hear you are improving on a daily basis.

It is a real unpleasant experience to have to follow everyone around to make sure things are done "our way" and not be able to do it ourselves. Really humbling and as my daughter says "Mom, you are a pain in the royal derriere. I am not helpless, I know how to do this stuff, and if you really look instead of being in panic mode, you'll see that I'm doing it your way. So would you just go for a walk, then sit on the bum, play a computer game, go take a walk again and relax already."

Well, she was right, just not used to being the one waited on and stuff.

So read this Marie. RELAX AND LET THEM DO THE STUFF. TAKE IT EASY AND SLOWLY YOU WILL RECOVER. TAKE IT FROM ONE WHO KNOWS, DO TO MUCH AND YOU PAY FOR IT. HURTS MORE, TIRES MORE, RECOVERY IS LONGER AND IN THE END IT'S NOT WORTH IT.

My famous last words. Don't forget to remind me of those words, if I need to hear them.

Get well soon.

Fran

Hello Marie,

SOOOooo very good to see and read your post. Marie, you are one feisty lady. We are all very thankful that the surgery went well and hope your recovery continues to go well.

You had me almost rolling on the floor with your "I'm still in command of this house" attitude. Hope your daughters are surviving okay. LOL You know they want only to help their Mom and are concerned for/about you.

With my spinal surgeon wanting to do two fusions I think I'd need a 4 by 12 inch board. Just thinking about that "hurts".

Thanks for the post and the details of your recovery todate. I look forward to your continuing updates as permitted.

Take care. Be patient.

RichT

Marie,

So happy to hear from you! I know it was probably a lot to sit long enough to write that, so thank you!

It sounds like you're doing really well and I'm very glad for you! The good Lord is walking you through (key word) the valley!

May things get better and better everyday for you!
Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

I do hope that those of you that are heading to both Bonati and LSI do have successful results. I know that there have been those here that have had wonderful results and I hope that they do last.

On the other hand, my personal experience with both facilities was a negative and based on that I would not recommend them to anyone.

The facts are these.

After being diagnosed with stenosis L4,L5,S1, and epidurals failed to relieve any pain for more than 24 hours with the first one, my options where to suffer or have decompression surgery.
I went for several other opinions at some of the leading hospitals in the Boston area and did send my info and MRI info to both Bonati and LSI.

Both facilities said that I was a candidate for their surgery, but there initial DX was far from accurate and both said I needed at least 4-6 surgeries.

I do understand differences in DX but the fact remains that both places found all of my problems to be thoracic spine and that my lumbar where of "no concern and no problem, that area was clear".
Red flags went up and I questioned repeatedly as to whether they had mixed my results with someone else.

5 different times from each place, I was told they made no mistake and gave me such answers as "they have special ways of interpreting the info they receive that is very different from the normal".

Well, my MRI had been reviewed by quite a few different people and radiologists, including a very close friend who reads spinal MRI at Children's hospital in Boston.
All said that both Bonati and LSI had moved everything that was the problem in my lumbar spine up to the thoracic spine area and that they where finding all kinds of problems that didn't exist anywhere in my body.

Before I had a chance to refuse surgery, the calls came from one place to schedule surgery ASAP and they had already pre-approved my surgery with my ins.
That's when I laughed at them as I have no ins for out of network coverage, let alone out of state. I told them they where wrong and got the argument that I was in error and they could get me in the following week. I refused and told them I was not interested in there surgery and please don't call me again. I proceeded to receive 4 more calls and pressure to schedule the surgery.

I didn't have much better response from the other place as well. Only they just put the pressure on to have surgery and $20,000 bucks plus each.

Needless to say, I had my surgery done locally with one of the best spinal surgeons possible. Minimally invasive and it was the correct surgery, even though it became an emergency due to bladder control loss.

I also know that I am not an exception to the results from either of these places.
In going for other opinions and talking with patients in waiting rooms, I met quite a few people who had very similar results from both places. Patients who had had the wrong surgery for their problems, didn't get good results because of incorrect DX from them and where now facing conventional fusion surgery because of what was already done.
Patients whose results lasted about a year and now needed to have more extensive surgery to take care of the problem that would not have been done if they had had conventional surgery.

I'm sure that they do have wonderful successful surgeries that do last and are wonderful for some people. It's just that they imply that they can do it all and prevent the conventional surgery and that is not the case.

And yes, I know that conventional surgery has it's failures as well. I just have met too many people who have been failures of laser surgery, diagnosed incorrectly as I was and ended up needing far more extensive surgery because of laser surgery.

Fran

Fran:

I am fairly new to this forum but have posted several times.
Your opinion. of course, is welcome but my question to you is have you had surgery at either facility?

My dealings with both facilities have been very good so far with a correct diagnosis of the issues by both.

My son has had a failed minimumally invasive surgery with a conventional surgeon that lasted one year and has seen 16 doctors in the last few years with all of them telling him to live with it and continue to take very addictive pain killers to control his issue or have a double spine fusion (15 success rate).

Is this a solution for a 31 yr old man who has his whole live in front of him.
He is at the point he is ready to take his own life than deal with the pain that the Oxycodone does not alleviate.

My son's insurance has paid $500k for conventional treatment and he has spent $50k himself. This is great business for the conventional doctors who offer no or few solutions.

I appreciate your opinion in this matter but have formed my own and I can live with the results good or bad because it is my research that has gotten me to this point.

Fusions and minimally invasive surgeries are not guaranteed to last and usually don't. My son is an example of this.
But, I refuse to quit trying until he can live a somewhat normal life and ten years of conventional doctors and surgeries is enough for me to see they do not have solutions for his issues.

I would not post against fusions, minimally invasive surgery or the surgeries performed by Bonati and LSI. They have all had their successes and failures. This all depends on the individual and if they get treated correctly for their problems.

My intent was to post on this forum as my son went through the surgeries at Bonati. I plan not to do this now as I believe it will be held with skepticism and malice. You have seen cases of all types of surgery being successful on this forum for certain individuals this includes surgery at Bonati and LSI but you choose to judge based on your own circumstance.
Thats ok. You have a right to your opinion as do I.

Innovator54

Hello Fran and Innovator,

Fran, you decided that because the diagnosis of the Bonati Institute and LSI were different from other doctors you assumed the two laser institutes were wrong. That may or may not have been the case. You have had conventional surgeries because you felt that was the best for you. And that is really all any of us can do. Correct me if I am wrong, however, if my memory serves me correctly you are still having some back issues. That is not to say what the surgeon did was "unsuccessful", but most likely that other back issues have arisen.

Innovator, you and your son have made what for you seems the best way to go considering the past unfortunate bad outcomes of spine surgery. I believe given the same circumstances most of us would make the same decision as you and your son have made.

"My intent was to post on this forum as my son went through the surgeries at Bonati. I plan not to do this now as I believe it will be held with skepticism and malice." Innovator I would highly encourage you to post your son's progress through his surgeries and recovery as you originally planned to do. It will be information that will be vitally important to not only those of us who post on this thread, but to all the many who just "look in" now and then. As I have stated before I truly look forward to your updates on how things go for your son. I hope and pray for the very best for him.

RichT

Marie:

Welcome back to the world of the living. Glad to hear you're able to feel little pain from the fusion and that you're also off the heavy pain meds. I understand that you want to get out and get things done, but be careful that you are completely healed first. Try to take it a little easy and keep bossing people around until you're ready to take on the tasks yourself.

Keep walking and keep us updated.