Laser Spine Surgery

Wow... You don't want to stay away too long from this thread or you will get way behind.

RichT/MJ:

I beleive there are several levels of the OXY drugs. I could be wrong but my understanding is in order of potency they are Oxicotin, Oxicodone, Hydocodone and one more level.

MJ: How much do you feel your level of pain has improved on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being that you feel no pain?
I beleive you need one more surgery but to what level have you improved so far?

Carrianne:

Thanks for the kind words. I have followed your story through this thread.
I am sorry for the headaches you went through with the nicked dura.
I would like to know what your pain level was before the surgery and where you beleive you stand now? As with MJ, how has your pain level improved on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being you feel no pain?
I also beleive you have gone back to work already. Fulltime I beleive.
Before having surgery were you working full time. My son has had to quit because of the pain. I have to say he has been fighting this for about 4 years now. My re-collection is you had facets done in three locations and L5-S1. Is this correct?
One more question... Bonati does do new MRIs when you arrive?
Your response would be greatly appreciated.

Innovator

Hello Innovator,

Thanks for the info on the OXY drugs.

Now why didn't I think of asking the 1 to 10 question regarding the before and after surgery pain "ranking" to better evaluate the success of a surgery? That's because I'm not THE Innovator!!!! What an outstanding question!!!! Thanks, now we can all benefit from the replies. I'm really looking forward to their "rankings".

By the way, I've been curious about your "Innovator" handle since your first post. Even more curious about the "S4". Mind sharing?

RichT

RichT:

I don't mind telling you what my login name stands for.
Through out my career I have been an inventor of many different kinds of products. Though I always seem to move on before the big money is made I have done enough to make a living at it over the years.
This is where "Innovator" comes from.

The "54" is the year I was born. Nothing fancy about this.

Innovator54

Good morning everyone!

Rich,
Yes, I'm back to work. I started Oct. 8 and worked half days for 2 weeks. I returned to full time Oct. 22. I'm doing ok, just babying my back a lot. I definitely know what not to attempt. I make sure that "busy time" doesn't get in the way of taking a lunch break. I use to skip lunch before surgery, but I realize how important it really is to give your back a break! I hope you're doing well and your epidural is giving you relief!! Have a great weekend Rich!! God bless!

Innovator,
I appreciate your support! Thank you! My pain level is kind of difficult to scale simply because it was never constant, more motion provoked (bending, twisting, turning, leaning wrong, sudden jolts, coughing, sneezing, standing too long, mostly sitting, etc.) On top of that, I have a high tolerance for pain. I wasn't on medication so learned to live with it for the last couple years.

On a bad day I'd say it was about a 7 or so. After surgery a bad day is probably a 4. So there is definite improvement, but not as much as I had hoped it would be 3 months post op. It may require 2 more procedures but I'm going to wait a few more months and see if things improve after my body gives physical therapy a shot.

Yes, I was working full time before my surgery and it was very difficult because I have an office, sit in the front of the computer job. Fortunately I do administrative work so I'm usually up walking around a lot which helps.

Bonati did do MRIs on my first visit. Their quality is much better than most and problem areas jump out right away. Here's what I had done at L4/L5 and L5/S1:

Discecetomy
Foramenotomy
Laminotomy
Partial facetectomy

Hope that helps and sorry for the novel! Have a happy day!

God bless,
Carrianne

Carrianne:

Thanks for the reply and the detailed response. We are all set up to go to Bonati. We will stay at the Gulf Island Condominiums. Fairly reasonable rates at $425/week. Days Inn quoted $64.00/day +taxes. Said this was a Bonati rate. Need to eat while there so would rather cook most of may own food. Can;t do this at the Days Inn unless you microwave everything.

We are waiting for the package from Bonati on the schedule.
Hope to get it in a few days. They sent it on Monday.

Once again thanks for the info and have a good weekend.

Innovator54

Hello Innovator,

Thanks for sharing your "Innovator" story. CONGRATULATIONS on being an inventor. We need more people like you. You seem to be the kind of fellow who really relishes a challenge. Also one who when the "excitement" is over with is looking for another challenge. You are my kind of guy.

'54 is the year I graduated from HS. Enjoy your youth!

Looks like you and your son are ready for Florida. Good. I know Joe really liked the condo he and his wife had while they were in Florida for Joe's surgery.

RichT

RichT:

I do enjoy climbing a hill. Whe I get to the top though I want to go find another hill. Not patient enough to stay on top of the first one.

Two questions for you:
a) Where can I find the first section of posts for the Laser Spine Forum? From reading some posts it seems like one was discontinued and this new forum started.
b) Why have you not opted for Laser Spine Surgery when I know you have thorougly investigated all the costs and all LS sites?

Also, some additional info on my decision for Bonati for my son:

1) A friend of mine had four spinal fusions. All un-successful. I will not state what happened to him after the fourth fusion but at 52 he is no longer with us.

2) As an inventor I know the trials and risks of inventing something new. With Bonati he invented this surgery and I am sure has been perfecting it for years. A lot of the lawsuits in the 1990s are due to this learning curve. Un-fortunately for some who had early surgeries there were probably failures due to lack of knowledge. I am sure they are a lot more advanced today than when in the 90s.
I also realize this surgery may not work for my son but he has given me indications he can not take the pain much longer.
Though back pain issues by most peoples accounts may not be as severe as cancer or other terminal illnesses I beleive severe back problems can probably be worse in some respects due to the constant pain for some back pain sufferers. My son is in constant pain and states his pain is currently close to a 9 or 10 with 10 being the worst.

Drugs do not help him much anymore.

It is always good talking with you. I hope you have a good day and remainder of the weekend.

Innovator54

Greetings to all! I'm sorry I have not been one of those joe bob type people who have surgery and can swim and walk and all those other fun things. I can't even type this message because I feel too week yet to sit very long at a computer. My daughter is replying for me.

I should have known November 9th, the day of surgery, when my 7:30 am surgical time was delayed until 10:30 am...then delayed until 11:30 am.....then at 2:00 still no word. I was about to pack my suitcase and wait for a new appointment but at 3:00 I got put in a wheel chair and taken to the surgical unit where when the doors opened and pushed through I saw my doctor walking up a long hallway to greet me. I almost did not recognize him because he was dressed like a martian. We chatted, he marked where he was going to operate and then turned me over to anesthesia. The presurge people were very friendly and accomodating. It was when I was on the gurney and pushed into the actual operation room where they aligned my gurney next to Fran's horses. I immediately announced I had been lied to, I was told I would on a table with my face down and some charming male doctor smiled at me and said you will be face down. I asked how would I be face down when there is no middle to the table and what seemed to be Pilate Straps dangling from the sides. He chuckled and said, like I should know this, you will be on a Wilson's Table. At that point I did not get to ask anymore questions because they put me to sleep. They tricked me. Fran if you want to know about the horses they put you on, google Wilson Frame. You will be able to read more about that table and why they put a spinal patient on that kind of table. More info at a later time.

Marie B.

Hello Marie,

WONDERFUL to see and read your post. So kind of your daughter to post your message to us.

Unfortuante that your surgery was delayed for so many hours. It would be difficult to have the patience that you did.

When time is right for you, do let us know how you are doing.

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

RichT

Hello Innovator,

Regarding the "first section of posts" - they are at the spine-health.com forum. A while back I tried to see if I could find the old thread and I was unsuccessful. I will try again. Hopefully others will be able to "show you the way". The forum has greatly changed during the past few months.

I looked again and was able to find "Laser Surgery Part II". That was started by the moderators after they killed our first great thread started by Carol. It appears "they" have buried the orginal thread very well as I could not find it.

Why have I not opted for laser spine surgery? A most appropriate question. Basically, as long as the epidural injections keep working for me and permitting me to function I will keep all surgery at a distance. There is another issue that muddies the water some - As you know Bonati is my first choice. Unfortunately Bonati does NOT accept Medicare patients. AND they will not honor my secondary insurance. i hope this clarifies things a bit.

By the way Innovator, I was never turned on by "plateaus". My most interesting and challenging quest took me 13 years to solve. After the challenge was met I felt I was in a vacumn. A few minor challenges after that but nothing like the first. Thank goodness I was near retirement. In '92 I crossed the bridge and never looked back. TOOoooo many fascinating things to do.

YES. a gpod weekend and hope yours was likewise. Top challenge yesterday and cutting a branch from a tree which was touching the antenna on the roof of my home. Fun using one of those long pole pruners when you are at the top and edge of ones roof. LOL No worries, my wife was giving me nental support from below. Ha Ha!

Hope all goes well in the days ahead.

RichT

RichT:

I am 52 yrs old now and am tired of climbing hills now. I moved to Arkansas to help my son and have decided to not climb anymore hills.
My wife and I have started a business together that should take us through retirement. This business is not complicated and has taken off very well. We will not get rich off this business but can make a good living.


I respect your decision to not have surgery. I beleive my son would do the same except for the constant pain and no relief. He has put up with the pain for a number of years but now it is to the point he can not work anymore.

I did find the Spine Health website and all the posts. Did this with a YAHOO search. I spent all day Sunday reading these posts. I liked the interaction
of I beleive it was DS (Doctor) on the posts. Responses were typical of Conventional Orthopedic Doctors. My son has spent over $500k through insurance companies and Conventional treatment and with deductibles etc
has paid over $50k himself and is now financially strapped. There is no end in sight for the spending on his back seeing conventional doctors. He currently pays out of pocket $300 for pain killers and must see the doctor every month for additional costs.

The $40 to $60k for Bonati is a drop in the bucket compared to the mounting costs of conventional treatment.

One more thing.... Have you ever seen a poor doctor? Most drive expensive cars and live in the best houses in this country. Yes, they have earned it by going to college and learning their trade. The treatment of back pain is a huge business. Laser spine surgery is a threat to conventional treatment as the way conventional is perfomed now includes years and years of care and a huge amount of dollars for all the doctors hospitals, etc involved. Back fusion for my son was quoted at $30 to $45k including hospital stays and then he would need some home help for a period of time. Plus he would almost be guarateed to not return to work for a year.

Why would a conventional doctor promote a laser spine doctor when it cuts into his/her bread and butter and steady income for years to come?
These views are my opinion. As you know.... everybody has an opinion and a right to it including doctors. Doctors need though to support theirs with facts when dealing with patients.



Innovator54

Hello Innovator,

"am tired of climbing hills now" - You brought back memories for me just after a retired. It wasn't until I retired that I started to realize how burned out I was. I totally enjoyed the work I did, but it was time for a change.

I wish you and your wife the best in your new venture. Sounds like your business is going very well. SUPER!!

AHHHHhh Innovator, you are a better researcher than I. Glad you were able to find the old thread on Spine Health. Yes, we did have a good interaction on that thread, and I'd say it has continued on our current thread on EHealth.

You put me on the floor with the dollar signs regarding the doctor/surgerical, etc fees. And he still has the terrible back pain. That hurts to the heart.

Innovator, now you tell me - WHY, when traditional/convention spine surgery is so INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE and laser surgery is at least somewhat less WHY won't the insurance companies pay for laser spine surgery? Something smells very rotten.

"Laser spine surgery is a threat to conventional treatment as the way conventional is perfomed now includes years and years of care and a huge amount of dollars for all the doctors hospitals, etc involved." "Why would a conventional doctor promote a laser spine doctor when it cuts into his/her bread and butter and steady income for years to come?" AND you my good man have hit the nail on the head it seems.

My thoughts and prayers are and will continue to be with your son and all in his/your family. May his surgery at Bonati be a success and his recovery likewise.

Innovator you are truly an outstanding father and fine example for us all.

RichT

RichT:

Glad you are enjoying your retirement and hope your family enjoys having you around all the time. My wife is having some trouble getting use to me being around all the time as I use to travel all the time to Asia and other countries. She is getting use to it. We do enjoy working together.

You wrote:

now you tell me - WHY, when traditional/convention spine surgery is so INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE and laser surgery is at least somewhat less WHY won't the insurance companies pay for laser spine surgery?

My response and opinion starts with a question -

How many Laser Spine surgeons are consulted on Laser Spine Surgery when making decisions on whether or not an insurance company should cover Laser Spine Surgery?

I am betting that Doctors consulted on these issues are Conventional Doctors and you know what the answer will be from them.
I have read several cases where workmans comp claims were filed by patients where the Judge ruled in favor of Laser Spine Surgery insurance payments based upon testimony by Dr. Bonati. I will find them again if you want to see them. My belief is since there are no Laser Spine Surgeons on Insurance Decision Making Boards that this is why in most cases they get overridden.

Conventional Doctors backing up Spine fusions is probably 1000 to 1 versus Laser Spine Doctors. Maybe more.

Don't get me wrong here if someone is getting what they consider to be help by Conventional Doctors more power to them. If someone is getting help from Laser Spine Doctors then great.
As long as they feel they are getting help.

When you are told we can do no more for you and must exist on pills that do not stop the pain then depression sets in, the person ends up on heavy medication and typically can not work. Life is over them. Suffering through 20-30 years of back pain is un-bearable for most people.
This is not a solution. People must have hope and a path to get relief. They can not be made to feel like there is nothing that can be done.

One last thought: I remember reading that DS (Doctor on Spine Health)
stated something to the affect that doing Laser Spine Surgery is very risky and could cause more damage. People readily accept Laser Eye Surgery today. Are many worried about going blind before making this decision?

Sorry for the long email. Just my take.

Innovator54

Hi everyone!

Marie,
So happy to hear you are through surgery and on the way to recovery. Our best wishes and prayers are with you! Gentle hugs to you and all those taking care of you!

Innovator,
Glad to hear your son is set to go to Bonati. You won't be let down. I'm sure of that. I say any relief at all is worth it. I can't say I'm 100% yet, but I really believe in this place. Good people who really truly care! If I do need more in the future I won't hesitate before going back to The Bonati Institute.

Does your son have out-of-network benefits on his insurance plan? Just wondered where the quote came from because they do honor out of network benefits.

As far as insurance paying, I had a really great experience with that. I was really walking on needles waiting for the Explanations of Benefits to start rolling in because I knew if a code was denied completely, I'd be responsible for it. The only problem I had was for physical therapy (e-stem, cold pack, and massage). BCBS wouldn't cover it because it wasn't in my contract (how am I suppose to know?) so it fell on me. $648 which Bonati very kindly reduced by 50% if I could pay in full. Like I said, they care and understand! They've taken a loss so I'm appreciative to them for helping me out.

Please keep us informed and we will be praying for your son, you, and all your family!!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Carrianne:

My son does not have insurance. He had to quit his job due to the back pain and currently is without insurance. Bonati has quoted me a flat rate of $20k per surgery if I pay cash. This includes everything except a blood work up ($200) and any prescriptions he will need while there.
This was confirmed by Bonati today (Audrey Armetta and Donna Pettit).
This is there standard rate for cash up front.
I asked again based on your email. I was concerned I was missing something here.

He needs at least two surgeries maybe three but we will not know for sure until they do new MRIs. His MRIs were about a year old.
So far we have a minimum of $40k for two surgeries and maybe another at $20k plus the $1000 for 16 days at Gulf Island condos, $200 for blood work-up, $250 worth of gas to get there and back plus food. We will take our own groceries and cook at the condo to save some money.

But total costs will be out of pocket $41,450 for two surgeries including expenses. If there is a third this will be done in Jan 2008 and this will add another $21,000 ($20k surgery, $1000 misc).

Alot of money for me but I want him better so he can function. He has two beautiful boys five and 1 1/2 yrs and an extremely understanding wife.
She is now supporting him as well as me helping in hopes the surgery will allow him to go back to school to change careers and become a school teacher and not a day laborer (he won't be able to do this anymore).

I am fortunate I have the money now and will spend my retirement money so this can happen. Hopefully we will get some positive results out of it.

Thanks for caring
Innovator54

Innovator,
You are truly a blessing for your son and so many others I'm sure! It's so very important to have supportive family and am so happy to hear that your son has you all. It won't be long before he's running around playing with his children and holding all the grocery bags for his wife!

You're totally right. Any amount of money is worth having surgery that will give results and please, if there's anything I can do to help out your family while you're here, my husband and I live in Tampa. I feel very passionately about The Bonati Institute and understand how stressful the whole process can be (emotionally, financially, physically). We'd be glad to help in whatever way we can, even if it's just recommending some yummy restaurants!

God bless,
Carrianne

Innovator54
I read your info and understand you are scheduled to have treatment at the Bonati Inst. I have stenosis in the L4 & L5, disk bulginf and facet disease. I have tried injections and they no longer seem to help. I have been speaking with Bonati and am very interested in your experience if you would share. If you have had the treatment I hope all went well. I am thinking of scheduling in December. Best of luck and thanks in advance, Hurtingirl

Hello Hurtingirl,

Welcome to this thread.

I'm sure Innovator will keep you and all of us updated as things progress with his son's surgery at Bonati.

A question if I may - How many injections did you have before they seemed to be ineffective? At this point I have had two and they are helping me. Hopefully your experience can help guide me in my future decisions.

RichT

Rich T,

I am glad to hear you are getting relief. My injections started two years ago with three visits per year. To date I believe there has been six different injections, multiple per experience. My back has gotten worse this year with a bulging disk. The last two sets of injections have brought relief for only a week or two. The pain never let up but was reduced for the short time. I hope this helps, if there are any other questions, let me know. Good Luck, Hurtingirl
PS I feel your pain! (a little humor to get by on)