I didn't realize you were already back at
work. Perhaps a bad memory of your past
posts. How long have you been working?
Part time or full time?
I'm just very glad that you are able to be
back at work. I hope your back is
handling this well.
Take care.
RichT
|
INNOVATOR54
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 29
Hello All Posted: 11-15-07 20:26pm
Wow... You don't want to stay away too
long from this thread or you will get way
behind.
RichT/MJ:
I beleive there are several levels of the
OXY drugs. I could be wrong but my
understanding is in order of potency they
are Oxicotin, Oxicodone, Hydocodone and
one more level.
MJ: How much do you feel your level of
pain has improved on a scale of 1 to 10
with 1 being that you feel no pain?
I beleive you need one more surgery but to
what level have you improved so far?
Carrianne:
Thanks for the kind words. I have followed
your story through this thread.
I am sorry for the headaches you went
through with the nicked dura.
I would like to know what your pain level
was before the surgery and where you
beleive you stand now? As with MJ, how has
your pain level improved on a scale of 1
to 10 with 1 being you feel no pain?
I also beleive you have gone back to work
already. Fulltime I beleive.
Before having surgery were you working
full time. My son has had to quit because
of the pain. I have to say he has been
fighting this for about 4 years now. My
re-collection is you had facets done in
three locations and L5-S1. Is this
correct?
One more question... Bonati does do new
MRIs when you arrive?
Your response would be greatly
appreciated.
Innovator
|
RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
On a Scale of 1 to 10 Posted: 11-15-07 23:48pm
Hello Innovator,
Thanks for the info on the OXY drugs.
Now why didn't I think of asking the 1 to
10 question regarding the before and after
surgery pain "ranking" to better evaluate
the success of a surgery? That's because
I'm not THE Innovator!!!! What an
outstanding question!!!! Thanks, now we
can all benefit from the replies. I'm
really looking forward to their
"rankings".
By the way, I've been curious about your
"Innovator" handle since your first post.
Even more curious about the "S4". Mind
sharing?
RichT
|
INNOVATOR54
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 29
On a Scale of 1 to 10 Posted: 11-16-07 08:24am
RichT:
I don't mind telling you what my login
name stands for.
Through out my career I have been an
inventor of many different kinds of
products. Though I always seem to move on
before the big money is made I have done
enough to make a living at it over the
years.
This is where "Innovator" comes from.
The "54" is the year I was born. Nothing
fancy about this.
Innovator54
|
Carrianne
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 107 Location: Tampa, FL
Posted: 11-16-07 12:18pm
Good morning everyone!
Rich,
Yes, I'm back to work. I started Oct. 8
and worked half days for 2 weeks. I
returned to full time Oct. 22. I'm doing
ok, just babying my back a lot. I
definitely know what not to attempt. I
make sure that "busy time" doesn't get in
the way of taking a lunch break. I use to
skip lunch before surgery, but I realize
how important it really is to give your
back a break! I hope you're doing well and
your epidural is giving you relief!! Have
a great weekend Rich!! God bless!
Innovator,
I appreciate your support! Thank you! My
pain level is kind of difficult to scale
simply because it was never constant, more
motion provoked (bending, twisting,
turning, leaning wrong, sudden jolts,
coughing, sneezing, standing too long,
mostly sitting, etc.) On top of that, I
have a high tolerance for pain. I wasn't
on medication so learned to live with it
for the last couple years.
On a bad day I'd say it was about a 7 or
so. After surgery a bad day is probably a
4. So there is definite improvement, but
not as much as I had hoped it would be 3
months post op. It may require 2 more
procedures but I'm going to wait a few
more months and see if things improve
after my body gives physical therapy a
shot.
Yes, I was working full time before my
surgery and it was very difficult because
I have an office, sit in the front of the
computer job. Fortunately I do
administrative work so I'm usually up
walking around a lot which helps.
Bonati did do MRIs on my first visit.
Their quality is much better than most and
problem areas jump out right away. Here's
what I had done at L4/L5 and L5/S1:
Hope that helps and sorry for the novel!
Have a happy day!
God bless,
Carrianne
|
INNOVATOR54
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 29
On a Scale of 1 to 10 Posted: 11-17-07 12:25pm
Carrianne:
Thanks for the reply and the detailed
response. We are all set up to go to
Bonati. We will stay at the Gulf Island
Condominiums. Fairly reasonable rates at
$425/week. Days Inn quoted $64.00/day
+taxes. Said this was a Bonati rate. Need
to eat while there so would rather cook
most of may own food. Can;t do this at the
Days Inn unless you microwave everything.
We are waiting for the package from Bonati
on the schedule.
Hope to get it in a few days. They sent it
on Monday.
Once again thanks for the info and have a
good weekend.
Innovator54
|
RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-18-07 10:56am
Hello Innovator,
Thanks for sharing your "Innovator" story.
CONGRATULATIONS on being an inventor. We
need more people like you. You seem to be
the kind of fellow who really relishes a
challenge. Also one who when the
"excitement" is over with is looking for
another challenge. You are my kind of
guy.
'54 is the year I graduated from HS.
Enjoy your youth!
Looks like you and your son are ready for
Florida. Good. I know Joe really liked
the condo he and his wife had while they
were in Florida for Joe's surgery.
RichT
|
INNOVATOR54
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 29
Hello Richt: Posted: 11-18-07 12:14pm
RichT:
I do enjoy climbing a hill. Whe I get to
the top though I want to go find another
hill. Not patient enough to stay on top of
the first one.
Two questions for you:
a) Where can I find the first section of
posts for the Laser Spine Forum? From
reading some posts it seems like one was
discontinued and this new forum started.
b) Why have you not opted for Laser Spine
Surgery when I know you have thorougly
investigated all the costs and all LS
sites?
Also, some additional info on my decision
for Bonati for my son:
1) A friend of mine had four spinal
fusions. All un-successful. I will not
state what happened to him after the
fourth fusion but at 52 he is no longer
with us.
2) As an inventor I know the trials and
risks of inventing something new. With
Bonati he invented this surgery and I am
sure has been perfecting it for years. A
lot of the lawsuits in the 1990s are due
to this learning curve. Un-fortunately for
some who had early surgeries there were
probably failures due to lack of
knowledge. I am sure they are a lot more
advanced today than when in the 90s.
I also realize this surgery may not work
for my son but he has given me indications
he can not take the pain much longer.
Though back pain issues by most peoples
accounts may not be as severe as cancer or
other terminal illnesses I beleive severe
back problems can probably be worse in
some respects due to the constant pain for
some back pain sufferers. My son is in
constant pain and states his pain is
currently close to a 9 or 10 with 10 being
the worst.
Drugs do not help him much anymore.
It is always good talking with you. I hope
you have a good day and remainder of the
weekend.
Innovator54
|
Marie B.
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Ohio
Rising From the Dead Posted: 11-18-07 18:10pm
Greetings to all! I'm sorry I have not
been one of those joe bob type people who
have surgery and can swim and walk and all
those other fun things. I can't even type
this message because I feel too week yet
to sit very long at a computer. My
daughter is replying for me.
I should have known November 9th, the day
of surgery, when my 7:30 am surgical time
was delayed until 10:30 am...then delayed
until 11:30 am.....then at 2:00 still no
word. I was about to pack my suitcase and
wait for a new appointment but at 3:00 I
got put in a wheel chair and taken to the
surgical unit where when the doors opened
and pushed through I saw my doctor walking
up a long hallway to greet me. I almost
did not recognize him because he was
dressed like a martian. We chatted, he
marked where he was going to operate and
then turned me over to anesthesia. The
presurge people were very friendly and
accomodating. It was when I was on the
gurney and pushed into the actual
operation room where they aligned my
gurney next to Fran's horses. I
immediately announced I had been lied to,
I was told I would on a table with my face
down and some charming male doctor smiled
at me and said you will be face down. I
asked how would I be face down when there
is no middle to the table and what seemed
to be Pilate Straps dangling from the
sides. He chuckled and said, like I
should know this, you will be on a
Wilson's Table. At that point I did not
get to ask anymore questions because they
put me to sleep. They tricked me. Fran
if you want to know about the horses they
put you on, google Wilson Frame. You will
be able to read more about that table and
why they put a spinal patient on that kind
of table. More info at a later time.
Marie B.
|
RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-18-07 18:56pm
Hello Marie,
WONDERFUL to see and read your post. So
kind of your daughter to post your message
to us.
Unfortuante that your surgery was delayed
for so many hours. It would be difficult
to have the patience that you did.
When time is right for you, do let us know
how you are doing.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
RichT
|
RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
Posted: 11-18-07 19:44pm
Hello Innovator,
Regarding the "first section of posts" -
they are at the spine-health.com forum. A
while back I tried to see if I could find
the old thread and I was unsuccessful. I
will try again. Hopefully others will be
able to "show you the way". The forum has
greatly changed during the past few
months.
I looked again and was able to find "Laser
Surgery Part II". That was started by the
moderators after they killed our first
great thread started by Carol. It appears
"they" have buried the orginal thread very
well as I could not find it.
Why have I not opted for laser spine
surgery? A most appropriate question.
Basically, as long as the epidural
injections keep working for me and
permitting me to function I will keep all
surgery at a distance. There is another
issue that muddies the water some - As you
know Bonati is my first choice.
Unfortunately Bonati does NOT accept
Medicare patients. AND they will not
honor my secondary insurance. i hope this
clarifies things a bit.
By the way Innovator, I was never turned
on by "plateaus". My most interesting and
challenging quest took me 13 years to
solve. After the challenge was met I felt
I was in a vacumn. A few minor challenges
after that but nothing like the first.
Thank goodness I was near retirement. In
'92 I crossed the bridge and never looked
back. TOOoooo many fascinating things to
do.
YES. a gpod weekend and hope yours was
likewise. Top challenge yesterday and
cutting a branch from a tree which was
touching the antenna on the roof of my
home. Fun using one of those long pole
pruners when you are at the top and edge
of ones roof. LOL No worries, my wife
was giving me nental support from below.
Ha Ha!
Hope all goes well in the days ahead.
RichT
|
INNOVATOR54
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 29
Climbing Hills Posted: 11-19-07 09:32am
RichT:
I am 52 yrs old now and am tired of
climbing hills now. I moved to Arkansas to
help my son and have decided to not climb
anymore hills.
My wife and I have started a business
together that should take us through
retirement. This business is not
complicated and has taken off very well.
We will not get rich off this business but
can make a good living.
I respect your decision to not have
surgery. I beleive my son would do the
same except for the constant pain and no
relief. He has put up with the pain for a
number of years but now it is to the point
he can not work anymore.
I did find the Spine Health website and
all the posts. Did this with a YAHOO
search. I spent all day Sunday reading
these posts. I liked the interaction
of I beleive it was DS (Doctor) on the
posts. Responses were typical of
Conventional Orthopedic Doctors. My son
has spent over $500k through insurance
companies and Conventional treatment and
with deductibles etc
has paid over $50k himself and is now
financially strapped. There is no end in
sight for the spending on his back seeing
conventional doctors. He currently pays
out of pocket $300 for pain killers and
must see the doctor every month for
additional costs.
The $40 to $60k for Bonati is a drop in
the bucket compared to the mounting costs
of conventional treatment.
One more thing.... Have you ever seen a
poor doctor? Most drive expensive cars and
live in the best houses in this country.
Yes, they have earned it by going to
college and learning their trade. The
treatment of back pain is a huge business.
Laser spine surgery is a threat to
conventional treatment as the way
conventional is perfomed now includes
years and years of care and a huge amount
of dollars for all the doctors hospitals,
etc involved. Back fusion for my son was
quoted at $30 to $45k including hospital
stays and then he would need some home
help for a period of time. Plus he would
almost be guarateed to not return to work
for a year.
Why would a conventional doctor promote a
laser spine doctor when it cuts into
his/her bread and butter and steady income
for years to come?
These views are my opinion. As you
know.... everybody has an opinion and a
right to it including doctors. Doctors
need though to support theirs with facts
when dealing with patients.
Innovator54
|
RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
Re: Climbing Hills Posted: 11-19-07 13:49pm
Hello Innovator,
"am tired of climbing hills now" - You
brought back memories for me just after a
retired. It wasn't until I retired that I
started to realize how burned out I was.
I totally enjoyed the work I did, but it
was time for a change.
I wish you and your wife the best in your
new venture. Sounds like your business is
going very well. SUPER!!
AHHHHhh Innovator, you are a better
researcher than I. Glad you were able to
find the old thread on Spine Health. Yes,
we did have a good interaction on that
thread, and I'd say it has continued on
our current thread on EHealth.
You put me on the floor with the dollar
signs regarding the doctor/surgerical, etc
fees. And he still has the terrible back
pain. That hurts to the heart.
Innovator, now you tell me - WHY, when
traditional/convention spine surgery is so
INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE and laser surgery is
at least somewhat less WHY won't the
insurance companies pay for laser spine
surgery? Something smells very rotten.
"Laser spine surgery is a threat to
conventional treatment as the way
conventional is perfomed now includes
years and years of care and a huge amount
of dollars for all the doctors hospitals,
etc involved." "Why would a conventional
doctor promote a laser spine doctor when
it cuts into his/her bread and butter and
steady income for years to come?" AND
you my good man have hit the nail on the
head it seems.
My thoughts and prayers are and will
continue to be with your son and all in
his/your family. May his surgery at
Bonati be a success and his recovery
likewise.
Innovator you are truly an outstanding
father and fine example for us all.
RichT
|
INNOVATOR54
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 29
Retirement Posted: 11-19-07 15:35pm
RichT:
Glad you are enjoying your retirement and
hope your family enjoys having you around
all the time. My wife is having some
trouble getting use to me being around all
the time as I use to travel all the time
to Asia and other countries. She is
getting use to it. We do enjoy working
together.
You wrote:
now you tell me - WHY, when
traditional/convention spine surgery is so
INCREDIBLY EXPENSIVE and laser surgery is
at least somewhat less WHY won't the
insurance companies pay for laser spine
surgery?
My response and opinion starts with a
question -
How many Laser Spine surgeons are
consulted on Laser Spine Surgery when
making decisions on whether or not an
insurance company should cover Laser Spine
Surgery?
I am betting that Doctors consulted on
these issues are Conventional Doctors and
you know what the answer will be from
them.
I have read several cases where workmans
comp claims were filed by patients where
the Judge ruled in favor of Laser Spine
Surgery insurance payments based upon
testimony by Dr. Bonati. I will find them
again if you want to see them. My belief
is since there are no Laser Spine Surgeons
on Insurance Decision Making Boards that
this is why in most cases they get
overridden.
Conventional Doctors backing up Spine
fusions is probably 1000 to 1 versus Laser
Spine Doctors. Maybe more.
Don't get me wrong here if someone is
getting what they consider to be help by
Conventional Doctors more power to them.
If someone is getting help from Laser
Spine Doctors then great.
As long as they feel they are getting
help.
When you are told we can do no more for
you and must exist on pills that do not
stop the pain then depression sets in, the
person ends up on heavy medication and
typically can not work. Life is over them.
Suffering through 20-30 years of back pain
is un-bearable for most people.
This is not a solution. People must have
hope and a path to get relief. They can
not be made to feel like there is nothing
that can be done.
One last thought: I remember reading that
DS (Doctor on Spine Health)
stated something to the affect that doing
Laser Spine Surgery is very risky and
could cause more damage. People readily
accept Laser Eye Surgery today. Are many
worried about going blind before making
this decision?
Sorry for the long email. Just my take.
Innovator54
|
Carrianne
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 107 Location: Tampa, FL
Posted: 11-20-07 09:05am
Hi everyone!
Marie,
So happy to hear you are through surgery
and on the way to recovery. Our best
wishes and prayers are with you! Gentle
hugs to you and all those taking care of
you!
Innovator,
Glad to hear your son is set to go to
Bonati. You won't be let down. I'm sure of
that. I say any relief at all is worth it.
I can't say I'm 100% yet, but I really
believe in this place. Good people who
really truly care! If I do need more in
the future I won't hesitate before going
back to The Bonati Institute.
Does your son have out-of-network benefits
on his insurance plan? Just wondered where
the quote came from because they do honor
out of network benefits.
As far as insurance paying, I had a really
great experience with that. I was really
walking on needles waiting for the
Explanations of Benefits to start rolling
in because I knew if a code was denied
completely, I'd be responsible for it. The
only problem I had was for physical
therapy (e-stem, cold pack, and massage).
BCBS wouldn't cover it because it wasn't
in my contract (how am I suppose to know?)
so it fell on me. $648 which Bonati very
kindly reduced by 50% if I could pay in
full. Like I said, they care and
understand! They've taken a loss so I'm
appreciative to them for helping me out.
Please keep us informed and we will be
praying for your son, you, and all your
family!!
Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne
|
INNOVATOR54
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 14 Nov 2007 Posts: 29
Insurance Posted: 11-20-07 16:03pm
Carrianne:
My son does not have insurance. He had to
quit his job due to the back pain and
currently is without insurance. Bonati has
quoted me a flat rate of $20k per surgery
if I pay cash. This includes everything
except a blood work up ($200) and any
prescriptions he will need while there.
This was confirmed by Bonati today (Audrey
Armetta and Donna Pettit).
This is there standard rate for cash up
front.
I asked again based on your email. I was
concerned I was missing something here.
He needs at least two surgeries maybe
three but we will not know for sure until
they do new MRIs. His MRIs were about a
year old.
So far we have a minimum of $40k for two
surgeries and maybe another at $20k plus
the $1000 for 16 days at Gulf Island
condos, $200 for blood work-up, $250 worth
of gas to get there and back plus food. We
will take our own groceries and cook at
the condo to save some money.
But total costs will be out of pocket
$41,450 for two surgeries including
expenses. If there is a third this will be
done in Jan 2008 and this will add another
$21,000 ($20k surgery, $1000 misc).
Alot of money for me but I want him better
so he can function. He has two beautiful
boys five and 1 1/2 yrs and an extremely
understanding wife.
She is now supporting him as well as me
helping in hopes the surgery will allow
him to go back to school to change careers
and become a school teacher and not a day
laborer (he won't be able to do this
anymore).
I am fortunate I have the money now and
will spend my retirement money so this can
happen. Hopefully we will get some
positive results out of it.
Thanks for caring
Innovator54
|
Carrianne
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 107 Location: Tampa, FL
Posted: 11-21-07 09:00am
Innovator,
You are truly a blessing for your son and
so many others I'm sure! It's so very
important to have supportive family and am
so happy to hear that your son has you
all. It won't be long before he's running
around playing with his children and
holding all the grocery bags for his
wife!
You're totally right. Any amount of money
is worth having surgery that will give
results and please, if there's anything I
can do to help out your family while
you're here, my husband and I live in
Tampa. I feel very passionately about The
Bonati Institute and understand how
stressful the whole process can be
(emotionally, financially, physically).
We'd be glad to help in whatever way we
can, even if it's just recommending some
yummy restaurants!
God bless,
Carrianne
|
hurtingirl
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Nov 2007 Posts: 2
Laser Surgery At Bonati Posted: 11-21-07 13:20pm
Innovator54
I read your info and understand you are
scheduled to have treatment at the Bonati
Inst. I have stenosis in the L4 & L5,
disk bulginf and facet disease. I have
tried injections and they no longer seem
to help. I have been speaking with Bonati
and am very interested in your experience
if you would share. If you have had the
treatment I hope all went well. I am
thinking of scheduling in December. Best
of luck and thanks in advance, Hurtingirl
|
RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
Wecome!!!! Posted: 11-21-07 15:00pm
Hello Hurtingirl,
Welcome to this thread.
I'm sure Innovator will keep you and all
of us updated as things progress with his
son's surgery at Bonati.
A question if I may - How many injections
did you have before they seemed to be
ineffective? At this point I have had two
and they are helping me. Hopefully your
experience can help guide me in my future
decisions.
RichT
|
hurtingirl
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Nov 2007 Posts: 2
Injections Posted: 11-21-07 15:13pm
Rich T,
I am glad to hear you are getting relief.
My injections started two years ago with
three visits per year. To date I believe
there has been six different injections,
multiple per experience. My back has
gotten worse this year with a bulging
disk. The last two sets of injections
have brought relief for only a week or
two. The pain never let up but was
reduced for the short time. I hope this
helps, if there are any other questions,
let me know. Good Luck, Hurtingirl
PS I feel your pain! (a little humor to
get by on)