Dave,

Welcome to our family and congratulations on making your decision, very well thought out I'm sure! I'm happy to hear that you listened to your gut, something that needs to be heard. We can all testify to that, I'm sure!

It sounds like you have a very positive attitude about this which is so wonderful. Keep that! It will make such a difference!

Best wishes to you and God bless,
Carrianne

Hello David,

AHHHHhh very good thoughts from Carrianne, a lady who has been there.

David, we live in Northern Virginia just south/west of Washington DC.

A thought regarding withdrawing from Percocet. I totally agree with your desire to get yourself off of this and for that matter other pain killers if you can. Dave, I hope you are doing this very gradually and not "cold turkey". Going "cold turkey" is not a good idea from all that I have read and heard. I was on hydrocodone for awhile. Good grief, all I did was sleep in my recliner all day long. So I gradually got myself off of that #$%@ medication. Sure wasn't easy. It took me a few weeks to be able to sleep and be myself again. I applaud you and just be patient, you will be able to overcome it.

Yes, Joe is a fantastic role model, AND we all hope all who have spine surgery can "get their life back" as well as Joe has been able to do.

As you may have read, MJ and Marie will be having back surgery the first part of November. And Carrianne is on her way to recovery.

Many good thoughts from Fran. She, through her doctor, and his recommendation that I see Dr W in DC have helped me to decide to stay away from the knife as long as I can. Your comment regarding your Dad also helped, as my spinal surgeon is talking about an incision a foot long.

WELLLLlll I hope you slept in late today as you sure were a night owl last night. LOL

RichT

I know I will be restricted for a while after sugery but there are definately things I can't wait to get back to when healed. My wife has been outstanding through this whole year and a half. Having Her has been the difference between being able to deal with all of the issues or going to the nut house. I think spouses and loved ones are the most important part in "healing and dealing". It has been a very long time since I have had a complete nights sleep and I am looking foward to that. Thank you for all of the kind words and prayers.

I'm so bummed. My primary Doc forgot to do an EKG for my pre-op testing so now I have to go in Friday for that. Unfortunately I set an appointment up with direct tv to be installed that morning. If I can't make the appointment that day I won't be able to get it installed till the end of November. I really want more than a few lousy local channels for the first few weeks of recovery.

Hello Dave,

You are Right ON regarding the importance of having a wife who understands and accepts and cares. I'm amazed sometimes at how well my wife has dealt with my bum back. She has mowed the lawn every single time this year because of concern what it might do to my back. She gives support and shows concern, and no compalining. Disappointed that we can't do things together like she would like? Of course, but she accepts it graciously.

Well, welcome to the club of doctors messing up. Dave, you live in Minneapolis, not in some small rural town. Seems you need to twist the DirecTV guy's arm. Tell him you are going with another company if he can't make a reasonable readjustment of his schedule. They both need a kick in the butt.

Time to have a beer.

RichT

Hello Carrianne,

During the bad days after Carol's thread was stopped I often wondered how you were doing because I know you were shaken by the action of others. I also know that your faith did not waiver for one second as you switched your posting to the religious thread.

Page 23 zipped by so fast I can't believe it. Talk about this thread being on a ROLL!!!!! Everyone here REALLY does make this thread. I've posted on a number of Back Pain threads and for the majority my post is the first and last response. Not even something from originator of the thread. No problems here though, except I can't keep up.

Have a GREAT day on your continued road of recovery from laser surgery.

RichT

Hello Marie,

Thanks for your response regarding your epidural injections. i appreciate the details.

I must say you REALLY gave the injections a thorough opportrunity to do their thing. Actually I'm totally amazed they gave you 8 injections over a period of 5 months. Most disappointing I'm sure that they did not work.

Thank goodness your PM doc was able to recommend the "best surgeon". I'm a believer that one good doc knows other good docs.

From reading your post I can tell your "new" spine surgeon has discussed the procedures with you well, and WHY he will be doing what he is doing. Speaks very well of him.

Now a question Marie - What is a "Fusion Institu"? I believe that in a earlier post you mentioned that there would be no instrumentation which makes me very interested and curious.

"As to if this surgery is the right choice???? I've done as much as I could. Now the rest is in God's Hands." - True, so VERY true!!! Your faith will see you through.

Hope you are doing well today.

RichT

Hi Minnesota Dave, I chuckled when I read your warning. Someone on this Forum or maybe it was on the old Spine Forum on another site, made the statement that between all of the spineys, we have watched so many videos on spine surgery, that we were convinced we could perform them ourselves. So don't worry about this crew being squeemish.

I don't remember if I told the whole group my story about when I first interviewed my surgeon...yes that is what I called it, "an interview". I knew he was the doc for me because he became so interested about the details that I was asking him about, he pointed to the young doctor who was working with him, on fellowship, and said to me, "That young man has studied 6 years of medicine with internship and residency and now he is learning by working with me how to do minimally invasive spinal surgery and here I find you knowing just about as much as he does."

So these spiney people are those who go into the surgical room after having done a lot or research on their problem. But if you asked me which is better, to know everything about what is going to be done, or to go into surgery with just trust in the doctor I would have to say the two go hand in hand. What is that old saying,
TRUST BUT VERIFY.

Hope everyone continues to be helpful for you, so keep communicating even after your surgery because there is a lot of help from the people available to you.

Good Luck and God be with you when you enter the surgical room.

Marie B.

Rich I just completed a lengthy report answering your question and I think it got lost...where I don't know. So here I go again. And for all I know both of these reports will show up on the Forum.

When you read this, please remember that I can only report what I believe I heard my doctor saying to me and I think most of it is pretty right on, but just in case something doesn't sound right remember...I'm an amateur spine surgeon


Fusion Institu means no titanium rods, bolts etc. What the doctor will do is a Laminectomy. He will remove the spinous process and a little of the lamina each side. He will then debrede the Facet Joints and the transverse processes will be cleaned as their condition necesitates. That is when all bone spurs are removed. He will shave, or sand, or abrade the area where the fusion is supposed to take place... He will use bone grafts to adhere to the abraded area. With healing, the roughed bone renews itself and merges with the grafts and fusion becomes fixed. My fusion is at the L4 & 5 level. And that's where my spondy is and that's where my wide based stenosis is.

I have a few other areas that could give me trouble in the future but one has to face one problem at a time. That is in God's Hands.

The hospital where my surgery will take place has what is called a "Pre-Op Day" Mine will be Monday, Oct. 29. Then they will do a complete blood panel. The tests included for the Pre Op are not all done in all PCP's offices. Some doctors here have "in house" blood testing that are done for annual physicals but not for surgery eg. they don't do type and cross match etc.
That is also when they will do my Extension/Flexion X-Ray.and my EKG. The hospital wants these tests done with their equipment and with their doctors doing the readings. There is also a History and Physical done by one of the staff physicians. I found this amusing because one would think that one's PCP would know more about you then a strange doctor, but the hospital has its policies. I suspect it is as much to protect themselves as it is to protect the patient. My surgeon has ordered everything and the hospital will FAX the results to my PCP for his records. Your actual admittance to the hospital doesn't take place until after surgery.

It's been a real experience trying to co-ordinate 5 places with all of my papers. There is my local hospital where the original MRI was done, and there is my PCP office, the Pain Management Center, The Spinal Instituteon Main Campus of the Foundation and the hospital where the surgery will actually take place.

And Fran, if you are reading this, they put the patient on a flat table with a little lift at what would be the Lumbar region. And you are face down. I hate that position, face down, but what are you going to do? You get no vote in this operation.

Speaking of paint sticks and the dependence on spouses. My husband just showed up with a 27 inch dowel and a razor strapped to it with a hole and a loop for hanging. Now isn't that great? I'm ready for the shower.
It's the drying and the dressing that is now on the drawing board.
Other then one leg at at time, I'm studying the pulling up of slacks and other necessities without bending.

I even found a big jug, 300 ml of Tide that has a pump on it for washing clothes. My husband was especially happy about that. It meant that he only has to take the clothes out of the washer and into/and out of the dryer. A very happy man he is.

Pray for all spineys looking at the surgery ahead.

Marie B.

Hello Marie,

A real bummer that you "lost" your first post. Not pleasant I know.

Many thanks for the explanation and info on Fusion Institu. Okay, so your surgeon roughs up the bone where the fusion is to take place and uses bone grafts to adhere to the roughed up area. No screws and rods. That would seem to me the BEST way to go, BUT it would seem it will mean that NO movement by you for a number of months until the fusion is complete. That would be the hard part. However, you sure won't have to worry about some screw coming loose, etc.

Just reading your description is enough of a "visual" for this guy. Thank goodness there are surgeons who can operate on people and do all those things without fainting themselves. Really separates the MEN from the boys.

Looks like everyone is keeping you very busy in preparation for your surgery.

AHHHhhhh you have a super husband. I'm sure his kindness now gives you confidence that he will truly be there for you after your surgery.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and all the spineys facing surgery, and or recovering from surgery. When the good Lord checks his prayer E-mails I'm sure he smiles when he sees all the prayers for the spineys. He knows we know that we can count on Him to be there for us. AND He is!!!

Take care.

RichT

Hi Marie,

Don't ask, still woudn up with another red sox win towards 4 and the World Series again.

Anyway, I read your post. Yup, no choice in the position for surgery. The reason for this position is it arches the spine at that bottom spot and makes it easier, safer for the patient and the surgeon to work on. So we can't argue that one.
Keep an eye out for the floaters. May or may not happen, but if it does, you won't be surpriesed and can call you eye doc right away.

No way to get around those paper pushers and all that lovely stuff.

Filled out all the paper work at my docs office for the surgery. signed all the stuff, they had it faxed to the hospital.
Went to hosp, for the pre-ops. blood, chest xray, EKG and you guessed it. Had to fill out all the same papers again, exact ones. Told them I already filled them out and wasn't going to do it again. 25 pages no less. Told me, fill them out or no surgery. I told them, get me the supervisor ASAP and check my chart while you wait for the supervisor. You have all the info already.
5 Minutes later the supervisor comes in, with my chart in her hand. Hubby and I can see lots of paperwork inside the chart and she has the papers for me to fill out in her hand. She gives me the same sob story of fill out the papers or no surgery.
My hubby said to her "are you nuts or something? She filld out the paperwork already, did you people lose them or something. And what's all the paperwork inside her chart? " She says it's for the surgeon, and He tells her so is all the paperwork she filled out already.
So I told her I wanted to see my chart and took it from her hand before she could say anything. Looked at it and said "Oops, look what I found. all the paperwork filled out already, just like I said. No need to fill it out again." She sort of grimaced smiled and said "fine".

I hate paper pusher people so much. especially when they can't do their job right.

Blood work and xray was no problem, but the EKG was not funny. They had these chair beds to sit in like going to the dentist. I couldn't get into it and I couldn't sit on it, in it or lie back on it. Tech says have to or no Surgery. I'm like oh crap, I just heard this stupid thing before.
So told her to get the nurse and learn, EKG can be done while I'm sitting in a regular chair and please don't tell me it can't be done that way.
Got it done without any problem in a chair.

Thank goodness that was the only stupid stuff I ran into in that hospital, but then again, the admit stuff and intake people are never too bright in a hospital. In all my years working in them, never met any that had any common sense.

On admission day, the staff was wonderful in both pre-op and holding area before surgery, surgical staff and recovery and post op. I really loved them.

Marie, that's one awesome hubby you have. One suggestion for the wooden dowel though. I'd wrap it in some duck tape to keep the wood from getting wet. Water and wood don't mix well and doesn't take much to start to rot away the wood. The duck tape will protect the wood.

Putting on pants. Best thing will be to get some ones that have an elastic waist. They have less pressure on them and usually don't have a seem ribbing on the back of them that puts pressure on the L4,L5, S1 area. That doesn't feel good. Was about 2 months or so, before it felt ok on me and about 6 months before the pressure from a belt was OK.

The first few days, I just stayed in a nightie as I wasn't allowed outside and I needed help going to the bathroom for about a week. Getting off and on the toilet and pulling up my pants.

Hubby or daughter had to help me get pants adn socks on for about a week and a half. During that time, we practiced the best position to put the pants/shorts so that I could get them on myself without bending.

It was a challenge because I'm so short only 4'10" and have very short arms.
I found sitting on the very edge of the bed with my feet on the floor was the best. I let the pants lean on the floor, lifted my leg enough to get one leg in, then the other. Pulled them enough to be able to stand up and then pulled one one side to get one leg up and then the other.

I didn't have to worry about socks though cause it was summer. I fixed my walking shoes so that I could just slip my feet in the and not tie them.

DON'T WEAR ANY KIND OF SHOES, SLIPPERS THAT ARE JUST SLIP INTO WITH NO REAL SUPPORT, LIKE SANDALS, FLIPFLOPS ETC. TO EASY TO SLIP OFF AND FALL IN THEM.

If you can bend your legs so that you can reach your feet to put socks on you won't have any trouble. If you won't be able to do that, ask your doc about talking to a PT or OT about the gadgets to help you get them on. I don't know what they are called, but they are used with people who have limitations in doing things because they had a stroke. They work really well. They can also work for getting you pants on.

Don't know how you are affected by pain meds, but all of the narc ones make me very loopy, dizzy etc. so be sure to have someone around with you till you know how they affect you.
They make me so tired, I take them and fall asleep all the time. Not sure if they ever really help with the pain. Took percocet after surgery. Put food in my stomach, took one and 30 minutes later I'd be asleep. Would wake up about 6 hours later and be hurting again and start all over again.

To tell you the truth. stopped taking them 3 days post op as the pain was really nothing compared to before surgery. It was a piece of cake in comparison.

It's really strange Marie, but the things I couldn't do after surgery because of the restrictions, or dificulty doing them, really didn't bother me. The fact that the horrible pain was gone, that I could climb 7 steps to go to the bathroom without having to worry about goin in my pants, because it took me 20 minutes to get up the stairs, was like being in heaven or reborn again.
Being weak and tired because of surgery, different kind of pain, regaining strength in core muscles etc. was nothing. It was like the beginning of living again and I was ready and armed for bear to start living again.

Patience post op is one of the key words. patience, stretch, walk and follow all instructions to the letter. If in doupt don't do until you've asked and never be afraid to ask a question of your surgeon or PT.

And remember that once it's lights out in that OR, you will wake up to the first moments of the beginning of your new life.

Fran

Dave, Welcome to our spiney family. Good luck with your surgery next week.

As I told Marie, Remember this, when it's lights out in the OR, when you wake up again, it will be the first moments of your new life without this spiney problem.

Its like rebirth and starting all over again living. It's a wonderful feeling.

Though I haven't had the same surgery as you, if you have any questions about post op stuff and questions about how you can manage to do for yourself. just ask away.

Be sure to get the post op restrictions before surgery and ask, ask, ask, all the questions to the doc so you understand them.

Once you have those, then we can help with ideas and suggestions.

Having had lots of those restrictions myself, I have some experience with getting around them without messing up the "rules"s

Fran

Hi Mare.

You can sure believe I slugged that neurosurgeon. He wouldn't dare have sued me because their where too many witnesses to how he treated my hubby and what he did with my husband out cold on the floor.

I'm old, at least I feel old these days, older than 57. But then don't all us spineys feel older than we really are?

I remember the days of docs thinking they where G-ds and actually treated like they where. When I was in nursing school, we could be sitting at the desk writing our notes in a patient's chart and the rules where, if a doc came to the desk, we had to get up and let the doc sit down.
You read correctly, he could be just there to read something in a chart and could do so very easily while standing. On the other hand we where sitting at the desks writing and it was too bad for us, doc gets the seat.

Drove me nuts and many times i didn't get up. Got into trouble too.

I've had my share of experiences with bad docs, docs that think they knew it all, docs that didn't listen and docs that just plain screwed up.
I don't take kindly to being treated like and fool, or not listened to, or the infamous, "I'm the doctor, you're the patient., you don't need to know, you won't understand" and all the other crap that docs will say.

I get that kind of treatment and I'm history with them and I make sure that everyone I know, knows how bad they are.

I'm not afraid to go after and incompetent doc either and get their license if I can.

Though I haven't been able to get the doc that caused so much damage to both of my arms, I was successful getting 5 docs that treated my mother for years. Unfortunately it was too late and they where the cause of my mother's death.

Under the law where I live, i couldn't sue them for Mal practice because I wasn't her health care proxy or power of attorney and my sibling wouldn't do it, because the belief was the docs where great and she was just "old and too ill and that's why she died."

Couldn't make them understand that yes, mother was old, but she was ill and dying of stage 4 cancer because of their incompetent treatment and if she had gotten the care that she should have gotten, she wouldn't have even had the colon cancer let alone stage 4.

So once she died, I talked to my primary who is also an oncologist, and a friend of mine whose a nurse with GI docs in a colonoscopy unit.
With their help, formal complaints where lodged with the state board of medicine and when they where through with the 5 docs, all lost their license to practice medicine in my state and across the country.

Funny thing is, if I had been able to sue them, I didn't want the money, would have donated all of it, except enough to pay off both of my kids college loans, to charity.
All I really wanted was those docs heads on a silver platter and their ability to treat patients anywhere in the country terminated. Human beings deserve better than any of these docs where giving their patients.

Too many people except what a doc says as gospel and never question anything they say, or they are too afraid and intimidated to say anything until it's too late.

Doctors are not perfect, they are human beings, but at the same time, human error is one thing, that happens. Treating patients like garbage, being incompetent is a different story and their are too many of them out there and they get away with it unless someone speaks up and does something about it.

Fran

So now what's happening with me.

Was all ready to have the facet injections done with the lidocaine to see if that's where the latest problem is coming form and presto, the following goes wrong.

Last week developed a gum infection that turned to abcess over night and had to be drained and treated with antibiotics.
That left the injections being done in question till this week.

This week I find myself with a cold, and that's the end of the injections being done on monday.

The next available date is Nov. 16th and I can't do it that day because I have a huge craft show to do on Nov. 17th and I can't afford to not do it and lose $3,000-5,000 in income from that day.

I used to do 10-12 shows between Oct 1 and Dec 1, but have had to cut down because of my back. So this year only had 3 and we really need the extra income now with the ins cost from my hubbys employment going up and the co-pays are all but going to triple.

They won't do it on the 19th cause they know I'm going to be hurting all over after doing the show and they won't be able to determine if the injections really make a difference or not.

Week after thanksgiving, the doc is away all week so got to wait till Dec. 3 to just see if they work.

Then I have to decide if I they do work, if I want to have the radio frequency ablation or not. and if I do, I have to get it done by Dec. 31. Before the first of the year the co-pay is $50. Starting Jan 1 2008, the co pay goes up to $150.

Damn. oops. I wanted this all done before the first of the year, whether it worked or not and if it didn't then the steroid shots into the muscles.

hubby and I want to be in DC on January 7th. i sware, barring a viscious snowstorm, doesn't matter how much pain I'm in. I'll grit my teeth and hide the pain from the world somehow. I have to be in DC on January 7th.

I have to be there, my hubby has to be there for our son. he is arguing a case before the US Supreme Court on Jan. 7th. We want to be there when he comes down the stairs of the Supreme court building and is through talking with reporters. We want him to have our support for such and important case.

You see, it is my son's case from Kentucky on the lethal injection on the death penalty issue that is going before the US Supreme Court. He's the one that filed the case for his clients. He's a death penalty appeals attorney in Kentucky and we want to give him all the support we can.
We just don't want him to know that we will be there, nor will be inside the courtroom for him to see. We don't want to do anything to put added pressure on him, we just want to be there after the fact for support. Even though it could be months before the court renders a decision.

And I wanted him to see how well I was doing, since the last time he saw me was just a few months after my surgery and I didn't look that great.

OK, one stop at a time, I know. And of course we all know how mother's can hide the pain they are in, at least some of the time. I couldn't have hidden it before the surgery, but this I can hide from him if I have to.

Just seems like if it isn't one thing, it's another and it never seems to end, yet it was supposed to.

Fran

Hi everyone,

Been lurking for a couple of weeks now, searching for answers for my mother. After years of back pain and leg pain, last april my mother was given a diagnosis of severe spinal stenosis secondary to degenerative disc in L4-L5. Their answer, of course, drugs. They put her on naproxin immediately for pain relief, which then put her in the hospital for three days when it gave her a bleeding ulcer in August. So, needless to say, she can now take no anti-inflammatory. I have seen her quality of life go down....and down....and down. We've been searching for non-invasive answers when a search for laser spinal surgery led me here. While I think this might be a good answer for her, she has been looking elsewhere. She came up with non-surgical spinal decompression therapy. It seems to be popping up all over the country in chiropractic offices, and from what I've read, they seem to have some pretty impressive success rates. (better than open back surgery, anyway) I won't feel completely comfortable with it though, unless I can actually find someone who has tried it, either with or without success. Can anyone tell me if they have had experience with this, or if they know someone who has? If you don't know what it is, just google it, and choose any chiropractic website that pops up. (you will have ALOT of choices, lol) Thanks in advance

Terri

Good Morning Terri,

Welcome to this thread and the great people who post here.

Sorry to read about your mom. I hope that those that post or read this sight can give you some thosghts regarding the chiro spinal decompression therapy.

Terri, I like you want to communicate first hand regarding this therapy, much like I wanted to do with laser spine surgery. All those "magic cure" ads does make me concerned. I certainly hope you can get some "first hand" responses on this therapy.

As my pain management doctor says "try the nonsurgical options first", but do so wisely.

May I ask if your mom has had an epidural injection with cortisone? That has worked for me.

Take care. Do stay in touch.

RichT

Hi Terri and welcome to the thread. It's great that you're doing all this research for your mother. Having a supportive family is so very important for those in pain!

I agree with Rich. Surgery should always be the last option. I can't say I've tried the decompression treatments, but have done some research on it. Seems like it is pricey because most insurance carriers aren't covering it yet. I've heard mixed opinions on it. Works for some and not for others. Pretty safe to say that's how any kind of treatment works. Definitely worth a shot!

I myself am recovering from 2 surgeries I had back in August so if you have any questions about it, please ask!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Fran,

Sorry to hear of all the obstacles with scheduling your facet injections. I know how frustrated you must be, especially for insurance reasons. Seems like it takes all year to get through your deductible, out of pocket max, and OILA - it's all resetting again. And your copy is going up so much! Seems to be the pattern with healthcare. Never really goes down as we can all testify to that!

What kind of crafts do you do? My mom is a seamstress who can't crochet or knit and I'm a crocheter and knitter who can't sew. hee hee

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

I wish I could go to sleep tonight and wake-up Tue Morning and Have my liefe "returning" surgery. I had my final pre-op testing today and everything looks good.

I was able to convince the Directv guys to come later today so I didn't have to go without something to watch for a month.

I appreciate all of your thoughts and Prayers. I think I have had the most prayer in my life now than in any other time. I can feel it.

I probably won't update again until Wednesday next week. You will all be in My thoughts and Prayers.

Surgery 8:30 a.m. cst Tue Oct 30 2007

Good luck Dave. I hope your surgery Tuesday goes perfect. All of us will be pulling for you. And, cool on getting the Directv. That'll be a lifesaver as you recover.

LSG

Thank you for the warm welcome, Rich and Carianne. Rich, yes my mother has had two cortisone shots. The first worked like a miracle and lasted about a month before the pain crept back in. The second did absolutely nothing for her, so I figure if she can only get three or four a year we better not pin our hopes on it working. I'm really hoping that the spinal decompression will help. Right now she lives with pain on an 8-9 range all the time. She's on Vicodin which I worry she will become addicted to. Even if this procedure can help at only 50%, it will be worth it. The procedure is painless so the only thing to lose is money. My mother is fortunate enough through good investments to be quite comfortable, so even if it isn't covered by medicare or anything it's not a financial problem. Most clinics do offer payment plans, and a refund of unused visits if you and the chiro decide it's not working. The chiro said she should see results within a few weeks if it is going to work. All in all, including exams and x-rays it will cost between 3,000-4,000. In my opinion, a cheap price compared to surgery, hospital and recovery. She is going to start next week, so I'll keep in touch and let you know how it goes. Maybe it could help someone else avoid surgery.

Terri