Hello Mare,

Thanks for becoming a part of this spiney family.

I greatly appreciate your sharing your experiences, even though they were not good. It makes the rest of us think about the importance of having a well qualified surgeon. One we can put our faith in. We are in his/her hands.

I hope and pray that things go well for your husband. So sorry to read that the wait times in Canada are so long. Is that due in part to your national health insurance system?

AHHHhhh, looks like the cost of surgery at LSI may be gping down somewhat (hopefully).

That's a real bummer that your insurance in Canada won't cover you outside of Canada. Seems like perhaps 15-20 years ago many Canadians were taking a "vacation" in the states to have their surgery, and I don't recall that they had to pay the tab. Am I close to being right, or off base?

Look forward to your updates, and certainly hope that the Canadian health insurance will change their minds and cover at least a good portion of your surgery costs in the U .S..

Do keep us updated on your husband's condition. Is there ANY way you can twist a doctor's arm so that he can see a doctor before Nov. 2nd? Hope so. Time is such an important factor with cancer.

Take care.

RichT

Hello LSG,

Your painful exp;eriences from combat helps me to remember and think about all the pain that so many are having and will continue to have because of their injuries in the terrible war in Iraq.

I glad that finally the bullet has been removed. Hopefully now you can heal in more ways than one.

RichT

Hello Comalhk,

Welcome to this thread. Sorry I haven't kept up with rolling thread like I should be doing.

AHHHHH a very fortunate person you are indeed that the noticed your high blook sugar level.

Please let us know what response you get from LSI and Bonati.

"Even the insurance lady I talked to said it cost them less in the long term for laser surgery as opposed to the cost of fusion " FINALLY an insurance company admits that it costs them less if one has laser spine surgery than if you have "traditional" surgery. AND yet they drag their feet. WHAT is the problem? Some peoples minds/companies are stuck on hold. That is when I want to paste them up against the wall.

Thanks goodness your insurance company is going to "fund" a goodly portion of the cost. By the way, do you mind sharing the name of your insurance carrier? Thanks

RichT

Hello Carol and Fran,

Seems like it has been far too long since I said "hello" to both of you.

Carol, thanks for taking the time in your now very busy life to give us an update, and to share your thoughts.

Fran, you are doing a SUPERB job in providing valuable info to a number of people on this thread. Thanks MUCH!!!!!

Take care good ladies.

RichT

Hi spiney friends.
I have been away helping my daughter for the last 4 days.
I am reaching a point where I am seriously considering moving forward to having surgery on my spine even thought I really wish I didn't have to.
I am learning that a hard days physical work on one day causes more pain difficultires the day after. When I am having a normal not stressed work day, I can go for at least an hour after rising before I have to take a pain pill. If I have done heavy work on the previous day, the time is far less and it is not just pain, but that type where you run for a seat because the pressure is so intense that you can't stand it for very long.

After a year of battle with this pain, I am thinking "Do I want to do this for more years? I really would like to have my life back.
I didn't choose this to happen and I am pretty "ticked" that I have to face it. It would seem after bearing children and having all of the problems that go with the reproductive system then having bone, muscle and nerve problems at this point in one's life can make you pretty angry with the world, especially if you were always one of those people who never smoked, never drank etc. This is like being on a constant diet and watching some skinny person eat a chocolate cake. All you want to do is
go over and smack them.

I am all but sure that laser surgery is out for me. I can't get enough information to assure me that having spondy, ignoring it while having surgery for stenosis is the best solution. And no one can give solid assurance that ignoring the spondy is the best route. I wish I just had a disc problem but mine is more ther that.

I have to face fusion. Insitu may be done and instrumentation with fusion does not have to be done. Having said that, there are no promises with insitu either nor are their promises even if you did have instrumentation.

I am meeting more and more people who have had surgery for Lumbar herniated discs of one level or another. They all seem to be doing O.K. years after surgery.

Rich, I am also making contact with a gentleman who owns a bunch of luggage stores in Ohio. He has had fusion with instrumentation over a year ago and he is doing fine. I have to find out more ...eg. his age etc. before I can tell you more.
Oh, and that 77 year old I was telling you about. He is 4 weeks out of fusion with instrumentation and is still doing really well. No PT required of any kind. He knows another lady who is 72 and she also is doing very well after 8 months after the same kind of surgery. They are experiencing no pain at all....none...nothing about nerves having to recover etc. They say they are glad they made the decision to have the surgery.

I know this sounds ridiculous after all we have heard but they do seem to be out there...those spineys who have good results post op. even after having open back surgery.

My friend has told me that one has to have a good and postitive attitude about this type surgery. He said you should not go in thinking negative thoughts. There are people who come through this with no problems and you should consider yourself as being one of those. He said his thoughts were, "If others have had good outcomes, then why not me." So now he is sweeping his floors in his house and can't wait for the day he will get back out on the golf course.

Some where these past days, I decided as I was walking through one of those giant Pittsburgh Mills Malls with my daughters, that I wanted more years of being able to do that with them. I do not want them to be concerned at every one of my sighs that I am feeling pain. My youngest even told me, "Mom, go get the surgery. If things work out, you always said that you wanted to be waited on. This might be your chance." I have a very funny young daughter.

Marie B.

Hello Marie,

I just read your post. It is priceless!!! You shared with us the process of making a decision regarding your back. You have given all of us much "food for thought".

I too don't like the current "life" I'm in. It isn't me. It bothers me that so many times I have to tell my wife I "can't go with you because of my back" to this function or gathering. Because if I did I would pay a high price in the days after. And yet, I try to weigh the odds of surgery making a significant difference for me. Dr. W told me that surgery will not make me feel I'm 55 again. Even my spine surgeon has warned me that with all that is wrong with my back, even after surgery I may still have pain.

Marie, you have given me much to think about. You have "documented" that people in their 70's have had successful spine surgery and it has made a positive difference in their lives.

Having a "positive attitude" is what it is about. At this point in time I have a difficult time being "positive" with the knife.

Marie, I look forward to your report on your communication with the luggage store owner.

I'm glad you have found the right road for you to travel. Making that decision takes a load off of your back I'm sure. (no pun intended LOL)

Thanks again.

RichT

Hahahaha! Oh Rich I certainly have had a lot of amused moments with some of your responses.
Your dr. says he can't make you feel 55 again? Well at least he was playing the numbers games in a realistic way. The first Ortho surgeon I saw who said to me, "I can't give you the back of a 22 year old." Now there is one who is utterly unrealistic. Even I know that I will never have the back of a 22 year old. Mine was already giving me problems when I was 22. Maybe a new born would be good....so flexible. I was watching a 9 mo. old in church this morning and he had his face pressed up against his father's chest and then would do backbends to look up at the altar when the priest was speaking. Now there is a back to ask for.

Marie B.

Carrianne mentioned in several of her posts in the past months about one of her herniated discs having the "stuff" inside of it wrapped around one of her nerves and Bonati had to clean that nerve off before it snapped back in place.
This has left me in bemusement trying to picture what she had happened to the disc in that particular vertebrae that would affect her nerve in such a way.
Now I know the majority of us posters do not know anatomical names nor physiological aspects of the lumbar spine, to be able to express the problems we face clearly to others. That's O.K. The fact that we at least try is a blessing to all of us as we struggle to face this demon back in our lives.

What the heck is that inner disc made of? A gellatinous material? Or is it like thick mucous as the mucous membrane expels. What ever it is, all I could think of from Carrianne's description was clear glue.

Fran, if a laminotomy fails, does that mean the next route should be a laminectomy? I am of course trying to determined if this is in relation to the lateral stenosis that can be a problem. Good Luck girl, you have had more then your share of back problems. Keep letting us know how your surgeon is approaching each problem you face. It is truly helpful information

Please also tell your surgeon that he is not to think we are trying to become surgeons as we send you back to him repeatedly with lots of questions. But do tell him that you have become the Spinal Encyclopedia of the spinal posters and if we could we would ask you for pictures from his Spinal Bible.

Thanks for the info. Your doc also confirmed what I had already suspected and which you had agree with in a much earlier post.

Marie B.

Hi everyone. Hope you all had a relaxing weekend. It still feels like it's the middle of August here in Tampa and I can't wait until it starts to cool off a bit. I sure do miss the north! Especially this time of year.

I head back to work tomorrow after 8 weeks off. I'm starting out on half days until I feel ready to go back to full time. I'm a little scared to go back and be doing things I haven't done in at least 8 weeks. I think my biggest challenge will simply be saying "no."

Still feeling pain in my legs and am sad about it, but confident that it's not the right time to go back and have anymore done. I'm just praying real hard that I won't have to. Time will tell.

I certainly think about all of you and how difficult it is to make the right decision. These are hard times and I am so very blessed to have this incredible support system. Thank you!

Best wishes and God bless,
Carrianne

Hi Rich!

Wow, thanks for your kind message. The last couple months have been difficult, but I know I wasn't alone through any of it. An easy recovery may not have led me to depend on my faith to get me through a tough one.

I keep seeing "positive attitude" on this forum and it's so very true. Negative thoughts lead to negative outcomes and that's the LAST thing we need! That's why we all join here together to support and encourage eachother. Keep our spirits up and keep pressing on! What a great system!

God bless,
Carrianne

Hello Marie,

May I suggest that you go to the spineuniverse for a good description of the compostion of the disc.

www.spineuniverse.com/display/article.php. article1267.html

(Note, there should not be a space in "display", not sure what happened.)

You will note that there are two layers. If the outer layer herniates, then the more liquid inner layer will leak out. It is my understanding that it is the proteglycans in the inner layer which when they touch the nerve will cause irritation of the nerve. This may be the substance that Bonati said was wrapped around one of Carrianne's nerves.

I'll also look for some more detailed descriptions of the Intervertebral discs.

RichT

Hello Marie,

The Chirogeek has a lot more info. Try

www.chirogeek.com/000_Disc_Anatomy.htm

Read the sections titled "Disc Anatomy" and "Birth of a Disc Bulge".

Hope this will help to answer your question.

RichT

RichT
Sure appreciate the way you make us all feel so comfortable on this forum. For quite some time I just read the posts because I was a bit timid about jumping in to make comments. However, am beginning to "meet the different posters and am enjoying participating in the discussions. You strike me as being a very caring and compassionate person...in fact I find those very characteristic in all those who have contributed their experiences on this forum. We basically all have one thing in common, and that is living in pain on a daily basis and learning to cope with this unwanted circumstance in our life. We have to make constant adjustments to our attitude when we are frustrated by our inability to perform those tasks that used to be so simple. I rec'd an email some time ago about the choices we have when we wake up in the morning in pain between sliding down the slippery slope into self-pity and depression, or looking at the blessings that God has poured out on us.

I sing in a quartet (two couples) and the chorus of the song we did this morning for Thanksgiving Sunday goes like this.

"There's a roof up above me, I've a good place to sleep
There's food on my table, and shoes on my feet.
You gave me your love, Lord, and a fine family
Thank you Lord...for your blessings on me"

That is my daily song. It goes a long way in helping me make it through each day in spite of the pain.


Carrianne
Glad to hear you are able to return to work. Sure hope you are able to handle it. To me it is quite amazing that you are able to do this so soon after your surgery. I know with my open-back surgery I was barely able to walk 100 feet after 6 months. What an amazing difference. Hopefully your leg pain will disappear once you are moving around more...nerves need regenerating. I am really praying that my leg pain will be greatly reduced by the Laser Surgery I plan to have.

Someone was asking what disc material was like...I think it was MarieB, maybe. The Surgeon that did my herniated disc operation last year described it as being like crab-meat being squeezed out out the disc pressing on the nerves that affect the various areas of the leg or arms...depending on whether it is a lumbar or cervical hernia.

Marie and all,

Like I told you in a PM, it's back to that MRI tube again to determine what is going on.

My symptoms are very vague, nothing for sure to indicate a specific, just a whole bunch of possibilities.

The only thing known for sure is the muscle I tore has not fully healed and now the sciatic and tibia nerve is involved.

The problem is none of the symptoms are enough to say it's a disc, herneated or "leaking", more stenosis, failed back surgery or anything else.

Possibilities are endless and the doc refuses to speculate on much of anything other than "something ain't right and I'm not playing blind man's bluff with what it might or might not be."

My MRI's are too old to be of any use except as comparisons to a new one, first one March 06, second one OCT '06 after surgery and the second one showed everything was fine, including the slightly flattened disc that no longer was flat after the surgery.

As my doctor said before the surgery, he couldn't make promises other than to relieve the pain I was having from the lateral recess stenosis. that he could fix and solve. He believed that disc would be fine once he decompressed, which it was.
I did everything to heal with PT and still do the exercises at least twice a day, some of them more, depending on what my activity will be during the day and evening.
What he couldn't answer was what the future held for my spine. as he said "I'm not G-d, can't predict the future, can only tell you what is in front of me with an MRI and there is nothing else there. Doesn't mean that a year from now, 5 years from now or any time in the future, there won't be further problems. No spinal surgeon can predict that."

So MRI Tuesday morning and see the doc with the results Wednesday afternoon.
All I can do is hope for the best and not sure what the best is. Is it finding something in the MRI that surgery can fix? finding that it is nothing there and dealing with muscle problems that are pressing on the sciatic nerve and tibial?

Can't worry about what it might be, just deal with what it is when I find out.

Marie, I don't know what is done if there is a probem with the disc after a laminotomy at this point. I didn't ask my doc because I figured it was a waste of time to speculate on what might or might not be at that point and my symptoms are not classic of anything.
It very well might depend on what is going on with the disc and then again it might be a different disc that is causing a problem now.

Rich, I know what you mean about not being able to do things. Everything is dependent on the damn back at that particuar point in time.

As is, I'm not able to go to my nieces wedding next weekend and I'm not pleased about that.
We had planned on going and this crap started 8 weeks ago. Hubby and I held off on the RSVP as long as we could to see if the muscle healed.

Well we had to decline because I knew that there is no way I could sit in a car for a 1 1/2 hour drive to the ceremony, sit for a 45 minute ceremony, then get up and sit in a car for another 30 minute drive to reception.
Wedding at 6pm, reception at 7:30 till at least, would you believe the invite said "2AM". then either sit in a car and drive home or stay in a hotel overnight.
Was suggested that we go down on Friday and stay in hotel friday night, go to wedding and reception, stay overnight and drive back sunday.
I just don't have that kind of money to spend and no one was offering to help defray the costs.
Never mind the fact that if the back and leg don't recover from the drive down, then I'm dead for Saturday and the wedding.

Ya, spine stuff sucks, and it controls not only the person who has the problems life, but everyone else in the family and everyone else around them.

Marie, I agree, wish I knew why some people have surgery and are fine and others have all kinds of problems. As my doc says, he'd love to know why too. It doesn't seem fair and it really isn't fair to good docs either. The last thing they want to see is a surgery resut that isn't good.

I can't say that my surgery result wasn't good either. I have a life and even with these new problems now, I can still do things including the gardening that I love. It's just that it's put a crimp in how much I can do now vs what I did a few months ago and we know something isn't right. So instead of waiting until it is much, much worse, it's going to be checked out right away. Learned my lessons well, don't wait to find out what's wrong, the sooner the better and deal with it one way or another.

Will keep you all posted and think about me in that nasty MRI tube with all the noise on Tuesday morning. Oh, how I hate that tube. Would love to have one of those open MRI machines, but they aren't as good and don't show well when dye has to be used and you need dye used after having spinal surgery. So it's that nasty tube for me again.

Oh, my doc doesn't mind all the questions. He prefers to have an informed patient any day of the week, whether it's his own patients or someone elses. He strongly believes that patients have the right to know the truth, have there questions answered and treated like dummies that won't understand anything that a doctor says to them.

Fran

Fran, the first time my daughter went into the tube, she was a little bit uncertain as to how she was going to react. She went into a hospital of which I can't recall the name but it is in the Dayton, Ohio area.
When they prepared her, they gave her earphones to put on and once she was in the tube, they played music and spoke to her via the earphones to keep checking to see if she was O.K.

My daughter has 3 army brats. Yes, these beings are my grandchildren. When the MRI ended and the tech was helping her sit up, he asked her if there was anything that she wanted. My daughter said, "Yes, Could you put me back in? I haven't had such peace and quiet for years."
Knowing her highly active and noisy children, the tech just chuckled, but no luch for my daughter. She didn't get to go back in.

Marie B.

Rich. I found out more information from the "luggage man." He is 58 years old.
He had stenosis, two herniated discs, two impinged nerves and spondy. When he decided for surgery, he couldn't walk.
Had Open Back Surgery. lots of work done and fusion with instrumentation.
Surgery done 14 months ago. A doctor in the big north east Ohio hoppital I spoke to you about; a neuro man did the work.
He is up and running, no residual pain of any type anywhere. Riding his bike everywhere for additional exercise. Since he was busy at work, I just chatted briefly with him. Doing fine.

Marie B.

Hello Fran,

I hope your MRI went well today. That is a first step.

frank, I REALLY liked your docs honesty and forthrightness. He has that way of telling things as they are, or may be, but does so in a kind acceptable manner. A very RARE and precious doc you do have.

Regarding the missed weddding - Oh boy, have I also been there, and is it ever MOST FRUSTRATING. For the very same reasons I was not able to attend my wife's 50th anniversary union of her HS graduation. Even worse, she was the one who was the "leading lady" in planning it. This past Sunday I didn't attend a "house warming for a most wonderful lady who has "moved on" since her husband's death from caner. It is hard, VERY HARD to not be a part of such activities. I undersand where you are coming from.

The patience of your doc in answering your questions is phenomenal. He is one of a kind. A very SPECIAL fellow!!!!

RichT

Hello Marie,

Thanks for the POSITIVE info regarding the "luggage man". I/we, need to hear of the positive outcomes. His experience gives me hope. Hope that I too can go forward with my life. DECISIONS, decisions!!!!

Marie, about your daughter wanting to stay in the "tube" for some peace and quite - I can understand. Our daughter in-law has two fine sons. Two very physical and mentally active guys. She is always happy when my wife and I "share" one of her sons for a day or two. She and our son give their all two those two very special guys. What a joy. AND I'm sure the same is true for your daughter. She just needs a bit of a breather now and then.

Take care.

RichT

Well, the MRI is done, but what a disaster to get it done. Sore as you know what for the drive to the MRI place, but can't complain about the MRI itself.
State of the art, newest models, wonderful soft padding cushion on the table and wider than the older models. up to almost 300 pound person can fit in the thing and this is still the tube type, not the wide open kind.
Only took 20 minutes to do the MRI, then inject the dye and only another 5 minutes to do it with the dye.

Problem was a long, long, long wait to get it done. Was beginning to think that someone up there didn't want me to get it done. Was just signing the paperwork for the dye stuff when a downpour of rain came. So stunned to see rain fall I dropped the clipboard on the floor and walked to the window to see the rain. We are 5 inches below normal around here and no one could believe it was actually raining.
As we where all looking out at the rain falling, the lights flickered and boom the thunder and lightening came with it. Then the power went and that's the end of the MRI going to be done. We where given the opportunity to wait and see how long the power would be out. Hubby and I decided to wait a bit. an hour later, presto, lights on and off i went to get the MRI done.

Did fined out why it is necessary for the dye with an MRI after spinal surgery and it is used even if surgery was done with endoscopes as well.

Scar tissue can build up and prevent a clear good view of the surgical area even if it is minimal scar tissue. So first they do the MRI as if no surgery, then the inject the dye through the IV type needle inserted and just do a repeat of the MRI where the surgical site is. That way the visual seen on the MRI pics can get through any scar tissue that has built up if it's in the way and a more accurate pic is seen.

So have the MRI to take with me to the doc tomorrow afternoon and they MRI place will fax up to the doc office the radiology report.

Rich, I love my spinal doc, but have had a couple of people ask me if he says more surgery, will I get another opinion. I hadn't thought about it, it hadn't crossed my mind, but it made me think a bit.

Conclussion, is no I will not get another opinion. I may be spitting nails and turning green in the office. Might even yell at him, but he's been nothing but open and honest with me, with my family, with my best friend who is a nurse and he can't pull anything over on her.
Surgeries fail and no one knows why and no one can predict why. Some do fine and some don't, again no one can explain, other than that every person is an individual and responds to everything differently.
Medicine is not a guarentee of miracles. So many variables going on.

When we go on forums to read info, usually the ones posting are the failures or the ones with problems. When I first registered on the other forum, I was over a year post op and overall doing fine. I held off for a while because I felt strange posting about being at least somewhat of a success.
I mentioned it to my best friend and she thought I was crazy not to sign up and post. I had valuable info and experience and people needed to hear about positive outcomes as well as the negative. Usually the positive ones don't go on line and look at the forums and stuff, only the negative ones and the ones that are total disasters.
That was enough to get me to sign on and post. Must admit, though, that I do feel strange there sometimes, but not at this forum.

They have valuable info on the site, but Rich, you've made this one far more personal and fun.

Thanks for doing that.

I'll post later tonight what the doc had to say, and will relate that you think he is a gem.

Fran

Hello, spine family.

My name is Lee and I'm one of the administrators of EHEALTHforum. I love my job, and am currently working on actions to grow our community. I've been PMing Richard on this topic, and he suggested that I address you in this thread.

So, here I am!

In order to learn more about you and your ideas about how to make EHEALTHforum an even better place, I've started a thread called "Identifying Back Pain Community Needs". Please feel free to be candid in the thread - or PM me outside of it. Either way, I appreciate your time.

I wish you all a happy, healthy day.

Sincerely,
Lee Weber