Re: Laminectomy Vs. Laminotomy Posted: 09-28-07 23:38pm
Marie B.
wrote:
Yes, Fran, your friend's
explanation of what the doctor said is
just the reasons my spinal doctor gave
me. He wants to provide the best of pain
relief in doing the laminectomy.
Now in regard to taking that bone
projection off, the roof, as they call it,
I know the membranes are around the
nerve, but what I am unsure about is how
the heck months post op when the brace is
gone is that spot protected from the
outside world with no bone coverage? What
is then protecting the nerve area in the
future especially at the L4 & L5 area.
For us women who are more curvey then men
in the back location, that is exactly
where our little lycra panty girdle hits
or any kind of slacks/pants meet the
waist. Do not outside forces then put
pressure on that nerve when it has no bone
protection? ( Hope this question doesn't
come out too racey for this Forum)
Maybe I missed something in the doctor's
explanation, but I don't think there is
way to just lift the roof up while they do
the work,and then lower the roof back in
place.
So does one go the rest of her life with a
"hole" in her back? If that is the case,
I have to lose weight to the point where I
am at my 18 year old weight level just so
I can keep some sort of wide elastic band
around me and still be able to wear my
clothes. Talk about impossibilities.
Marie B.
Marie, good question and I wondered the
same thing in the conversation that hubby
friend and I had with my spinal doc.
His answer was this that he wrote down for
me. " patients worry that the “removing
of the roof” as lots of doctors call it,
leaves spinal nerves uncovered and
unprotected. However, the nerves are still
well protected after the surgery by the
muscle and the spinal joint which
surrounds the spinal canal."
They do not put the lamina back after they
are done. It is gone forever.
As for the incision and the pressure from
the waist of pants. My incision was for
the L4,L5,S1 and is a one inch incision
and is about 2 inches or so below my
waist. I have not had any problem wearing
pants since my surgery, except for one
pair of dungarees that had a low seam in
the back, part of the design and that did
go right over the incision and didn't feel
so great for about 5 months, and I felt
too much pressure from a belt for about
the same length of time. For the last 10
months, I've been wearing all the clothes
that I wore before surgery without any
problems.
Actually, my biggest complaint was with
the cold weather in New England. The
incision may only be one inch, but it
didn't like our winters. Every time I
went outside, within minutes it felt like
an ice cube was being rubbed up and down
that 1 inch incision. It didn't hurt, was
very annoying, sort of like a zipper
affect going up and down that one spot all
winter. Drove me nuts.
Doc said it will be gone this winter.
Told him "I'm holding you to it, cause if
it is still there and you caused it doing
the surgery, you should have to suffer the
same thing." He thought it was funny, but
it was really annoying.
Bad enough it was freezing outside but
having an ice cube feel zipping up and
down that one spot was not an enjoyable
experience.
I wouldn't worry about the nerves not
being protected.
Fran
|
littleonefb
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Posts: 326 Location: ,
Thanks: 14
Thanked:0
Fixing the Time Out Problem Posted: 09-28-07 23:43pm
Hi Rich,
OK I tried this method before and just
tried it again. it doesn't work. Had
hubby the computer "geek" try it too and
zippo, does not work.
2. You can manually go "back" to your post
if you find that you're logged out. Then,
right click to the ehealthforum home page,
open this page in a new window, and log in
again. Your message should be preserved
and you should be able to send it as soon
as you're logged in."
I would still prefer not to be logged out
at all. Have the same problem with my
e-mail too, so that's where I figured out
my elaborate method to post there and here
as well.
I would think that we should be able to
have at least 1 hour before the system
knocks us off and we have to log in again,
but even longer would be good.
Sometimes, I've had to go back on the
thread for info while responding or I want
to google something to check out if I have
the right info.
Hope that gives you a start on how long we
should have.
Fran
|
Marie B.
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Ohio
Laminectomy Knowledge a Relief Posted: 09-29-07 08:34am
Thanks Fran for that bit of information on
the Laminectomy.
A person can walk into a doctor's office
with a list of 20 questions, spend 2 hours
with the doctor, go home and the brain can
come up with 20 more questions. My
husband now is telling me that I read too
much, think too much and worry too much.
He has made the decision for surgery with
this last doctor. I'm not ready yet to
say "go". Why? it's the fusion part that
is my problem.
Fran, did you have fusion of any type for
spondy? I don't remember if you addressed
that in the past. I don't even know if
spondy is the only reason they do fusion
in the growing old crowd.
The doctor said he is 100% sure that
removing the cause of the stenosis will
give me immediate relief in regard to the
buttock and thigh pain, but he is not sure
that the low back pain will be completely
gone. That was the response when he saw
my hesitancy about fusion....of any kind.
He admitted that my "spondy" was not
severe, actually it was a low grade spondy
but there is enough of it that peeks(my
word) into the nerve canal, that makes him
say there is a possibility if I don't have
the fusion, I may still get the low back
pain.
I remember reading on the Old Forum, one
of the posters said she had talked her
doctor out of fusion and now she has to go
back for a repeat of the surgery that she
talked the surgeon out of doing. I don't
remember her name. But I understood that
initial belief of "Well why don't we see
if the stenosis removal can take care of
everything first." Because that is my
thinking.
Once fusion takes place, it can never be
reversed. Post Op, the instructions are,
don't bend very much and don't twist. If
I counted the number of times I bend just
picking up after the spouse of the house,
and making a king size bed is all lifting
and twisting, I could enter the Hall of
Fame for the number of times I bend
The doctor said he would do the surgery on
the stenosis if I was that adamant against
fusion but he would start me on an
immediate regimen of back strengthening
exercises. Which in turn means to me
those abdominals have to be really
improved. I have 4 areas on my abdomen
that have scar tissue from past abdominal
surgeries. I never could get them back in
shape even when I was younger. Will
strengtening exercises actually overcome
the spondy, or will it just prevent it
from slipping further? Decisions,
decisions, decisions.
Marie B
|
Marie B.
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Ohio
Preferences On Time Out Posted: 09-29-07 08:43am
Rick, I agree with Fran. I would think it
would be better if they just dropped the
log out all together. But I don't run a
website like this and I don't know how
many people would be so interested about
invading such a website for knowledge. So
far, I'm O.K.
and get my messages in on time. What I am
still trying to figure out are the
primvate message boxes. I can't tell if a
message is sent or not when I submit
because I can still find it in the out
box. So does it go or does it not go?
Marie B
|
littleonefb
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 11 Aug 2007 Posts: 326 Location: ,
Thanks: 14
Thanked:0
Re: Laminectomy Knowledge a Relief Posted: 09-29-07 21:19pm
Marie B.
wrote:
Thanks Fran for that bit of
information on the Laminectomy.
A person can walk into a doctor's office
with a list of 20 questions, spend 2 hours
with the doctor, go home and the brain can
come up with 20 more questions. My
husband now is telling me that I read too
much, think too much and worry too much.
He has made the decision for surgery with
this last doctor. I'm not ready yet to
say "go". Why? it's the fusion part that
is my problem.
Fran, did you have fusion of any type for
spondy? I don't remember if you addressed
that in the past. I don't even know if
spondy is the only reason they do fusion
in the growing old crowd.
The doctor said he is 100% sure that
removing the cause of the stenosis will
give me immediate relief in regard to the
buttock and thigh pain, but he is not sure
that the low back pain will be completely
gone. That was the response when he saw
my hesitancy about fusion....of any kind.
He admitted that my "spondy" was not
severe, actually it was a low grade spondy
but there is enough of it that peeks(my
word) into the nerve canal, that makes him
say there is a possibility if I don't have
the fusion, I may still get the low back
pain.
I remember reading on the Old Forum, one
of the posters said she had talked her
doctor out of fusion and now she has to go
back for a repeat of the surgery that she
talked the surgeon out of doing. I don't
remember her name. But I understood that
initial belief of "Well why don't we see
if the stenosis removal can take care of
everything first." Because that is my
thinking.
Once fusion takes place, it can never be
reversed. Post Op, the instructions are,
don't bend very much and don't twist. If
I counted the number of times I bend just
picking up after the spouse of the house,
and making a king size bed is all lifting
and twisting, I could enter the Hall of
Fame for the number of times I bend
The doctor said he would do the surgery on
the stenosis if I was that adamant against
fusion but he would start me on an
immediate regimen of back strengthening
exercises. Which in turn means to me
those abdominals have to be really
improved. I have 4 areas on my abdomen
that have scar tissue from past abdominal
surgeries. I never could get them back in
shape even when I was younger. Will
strengthening exercises actually overcome
the spondy, or will it just prevent it
from slipping further? Decisions,
decisions, decisions.
Marie B
Marie, you are right, leave the office and
presto tons more questions that you think
of that you should have asked, even if you
had a list a mile long to begin with.
And, yes, a little bit of knowledge can be
dangerous, reading on line can be even
worse. As my spine doc said to us as we
asked question after question, "Wow, wait
a minute. erase what you have been
reading on line from you mind and then we
will start again with the questions. Too
much incorrect info is on there and never
corrected or what you read is really well
out of date and then you come in to a docs
office panicked stricken with so much info
that isn't correct".
I had tried to find all the info I could
on laminotomy and recovery and almost
everything I read was mostly wrong. It
was really upsetting to find out that even
the most careful research we can do on
line is, many times not correct.
Just about the only thing correct that I
was able to find was that the recovery
period is less than for a laminectomy, but
still very difficult.
Not funny to find out that all you where
panicked about was a waste of time.
energy, effort and most of all panic and
lack of sleep.
We where planning for me having to go to a
rehab facility because we where reading
that you can't climb stairs and need help
just to move.
Oh, my what the truth was and how
different.
Anyway, my hubby was sold on my spinal doc
from day one too. Even before we ended up
talking about surgery as the only answer
to my problem. I think it was mostly
because this doc really cared about his
patients, took the time to explain
everything and was determined to do
whatever he could to relieve my pain and
avoid surgery unless it was necessary.
We liked the fact that this particular
Sports medicine practice was all
inclusive. They had orthos for every part
of the body, pain docs in the office,
their own xray department, and the MRI
facility downstairs as well. Everyone
worked as a team, met as a team as needed
with other docs in the office, pain doc
and ortho worked together to set up a plan
and they constantly where in touch with
the patients primary doc as well.
Mine too didn't use the "big guy"
hospitals unless absolutely necessary as
you just get lost in them, and he didn't
like his patients "being treated like a
number", when his office does their best
to treat each patient as an individual.
I didn't have fusion of any kind nor did I
have an facet problems and the only area
affected was the L4,L5,S1 with a lateral
stenosis. He saw no spondy or anything
else on the MRI. Of course the MRI was
done over a year ago, so that doesn't mean
that something else hasn't developed or
will develop in the future. He told me
that because there was a problem, I have
about a 50/50 shot of future problems and
there is nothing that can prevent that
from happening, nor can he see into the
future and tell me what will or will not
happen with my spine. He can only give me
statistical info.
My doc was positive that by doing a small,
partial laminotomy and shaving a part of
the lateral recess area, that my problem
would be solved. He did see a slight
flattening of the disc in the area at the
lateral recess area and believed that once
that area was widened, the disc would
bounce right back into shape and be fine.
He saw no evidence of spondy and went over
my MRI with a fine tooth comb and compared
mine to specifics in a huge book of MRI
pics of the spine. Docs call it the "MRI
bible of spine pics, and what normal vs
problem look like". He was able to match
mine to what he says my diagnosis was, but
couldn't match my MRI to any other problem
that any other doc I saw for other
opinions said was wrong.
Now those abdominal muscles, strengthening
them and lots of abd surgeries I can
relate to.
My lower abdominals and middle ones look
more like a road map and they started when
I was 17 with an emergency appendectomy.
I'm lucky to be alive after they ruptured
and left me in a coma for a few weeks.
Since that one I have had 3 lower
abdominal ones, before the advent of the
endoscope, just to repair GYN damage from
the original ruptured appendix, that also
forced the removal of one ovary and 1 tube
on the same side as the appendectomy.
They also removed scar tissue from the
original appendectomy 3 times.
Those abs where not in the greatest of
shape strength wise when I got pregnant
with my first 10 years later. It's hard
to get them in shape after being cut into
so many times.
My first was born my c-section in an
emergency and the damn doc did a
horizontal outer incision as it was
quicker to save my son's life. That split
the muscles down the middle from just
below the naval. That did them in and
it's all but impossible to get them really
strong again. When I had my second baby,
they went in and "unzipped" the original
c-section incision as I didn't dilate
enough after 52 hours of labor.
Well forget getting them strong again.
It's like having to separate sets of lower
abdominal muscles. They are as strong as
they will ever get and they are split down
the middle, with a sunk in area where the
incision line is and 2 bulges on either
side. Not pretty to look at either and it
doesn't matter how thin or heavy you are,
they look the same.
Oh, forgot a year and a half before I got
pregnant with my 2nd, I had my gallbladder
removed as an emergency, so there is one
huge incision in my midriff for that one.
Those muscles are pretty strong.
As for the no bending, twisting, turning,
stooping with a fusion. Those where my
orders for just a laminotomy as well. I
looked at the doc and said, "How the heck
am I supposed to wipe my rear on the
toilet. I'm very short and very short
arms. I couldn't do that when I was
little without twisting some?" He said
that was ok," but nothing else, for 6
weeks. But then you will be without the
pain that you are feeling, so how bad will
it be to get that result?" I looked at
him and just told him "give those
instructions to your wife and remember you
have 3 young kids and see what she says,
or better yet, have her follow those
orders for 1 week and see for yourself
what kind of disaster occurs in your
house."
Well he actually did give his wife those
instructions. She looked at him and told
him that instead she would make him a list
of all the things she wouldn't be able to
do with those rules and he will see what
the results will be that way. The next
time I saw the doc, before my surgery, he
told me what the results where with his
wife and all he could say was "be glad you
don't have any little kids at home as
well." I just laughed.
Believe me Marie, you do manage without
the bending, turning, twisting, stooping
bit. Just make a list of all the things
you have to do that involves that stuff
and work out how you can do any of them
with the restrictions. If you can't then
the stuff doesn't get done by you.
We went through every room in my house, 1
by 1, and moved things, rearranged the
kitchen and all that good stuff so that I
could be as independent as possible and
not do any harm to myself after surgery.
My hubby was home with me for a week after
surgery and it worked out fine. The
following week he went back to work and I
managed with bits of help from some
friends and my daughter, who was 23.
Spinal surgery can't end all the muscle
pain that you have, and my doc told me
that. He didnt' believe that all the pain
in my buttocks would go with the surgery
as he believed it was from weak and
possibly damaged muscle from lack of use
for so long. The old "what you don't use,
you lose" is true. In my case, some of
that muscle is damaged and won't heal or
respond to PT. Since it is weak in one
part I have to be careful to not over do.
I blew it and now it is torn and might
need surgery to repair.
But prior to that, I had some mild
discomfort from it, especially when the
weather changed or a storm is coming.
that I can live with and rarely took even
a regular strength tylenol for it.
It slows me down some in terms of the
length of time I can do things before I
have to stretch and rest. The thing is, I
can do everything I did before, just not
for the long period of time. I used to be
able to garden for hours on end without a
problem, So now I can go for an hour,
then I have to change positions and rest a
bit, but I can get in 4-6 hours of
gardening a day. I can't walk 4 miles at
a time, but I can do 2 miles then rest and
do 2 more, at least before the muscle tore
I could. So I have restrictions on my
activity. The thing is before the
surgery, I was in constant pain, couldn't
walk 10 steps and, in all honesty,
contemplated suicide if I had to live the
way I was living. So I have no
complaints.
Fusion may not be the way you want to go,
but it sounds like that your doc is being
very honest with you and telling you like
it is.
From a prior post you listed the following
problems
"The reason: Chronic progressive low back
pain. Bilateral lower extremity
radiculopaty. Several bulging discs,
L3-4 level diffuse disc bulge.
L4-5 level bilateral facet disease,
buckling of the ligamentum flavum,
moderate to sever spinal canal stenosis
with impingements of L4 nerve and L5 nerve
and a L5-S1 disc herniation. That was the
MRI result in January ordered by primary
physician
After 5 months of 2 lumbar Injections and
3 Transforaminal injections with little if
no relief, went to local orthopedic spine
specialist. X-ray found Spondylolisthesis.
Jan's. MRI report specifically stated: "No
spondylolisthesis is seen."
Advised no minimal surgery. Large
incision, discectomy, fusion, bonegraft
and of course the required blood donation
for such extensive surger.
Shock was my response and a walk out the
office door in a daze.
D.
That's several different things going on
in a couple of areas and I would think
that doing just the stenosis with no
fusion of any kind would weaken your spine
and cause problems down the road, if not
shortly after the surgery.
Your original doc also said "no minimally
invasive surgery, bonegraft" and all the
big gun stuff.
Your new doc has a different method and
sounds more up to date on what he can do
to help you.
Fusion can't be undone once it has been
done, on the other hand, I wouldn't want
to have further surgery to do it after the
surgery I had didn't work and made it
necessary to have the fusion either. I'd
also be worried about any further damage
done if I didn't have the fusion that the
new doc wanted to do now and ended up
having to do later, especially with
abdominal muscles like we both have. PT
can strengthen them some, but not the way
they should be.
I have talked with a couple of people in
the waiting room of my spinal docs office
who have had the laser surgery and where
now there for fusion because after several
years, spondy developed or got worse and
the spine is slipping all over the place
or they where there for follow-up after
having no fusion done with another doc,
they didn't want it and now they where
slipping as well.
What you have Marie, are 2 docs telling
you that you should have fusion with your
spinal problems. The difference is the
method of surgery that is so different.
If you are still unsure of what to do, you
can always get another opinion and see
what that doc says as well. I'm guessing
that you will hear fusion from another doc
as well because of all that the MRI shows.
The question may come down to how the
surgery is done, how confident you feel
with the doc and whether you want to risk
surgery with no fusion and hope that works
and if not face fusion at a later date.
If I felt confident with this new doc, I
would go with him. If I still had some
doubts I would get another opinion first.
Fran
|
lonestarguy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 592 Location: , Hoosierland, USA
Thanks: 10
Thanked:1
Posted: 09-29-07 22:29pm
Fran and Marie:
Many years ago, I had a laminectomy in my
cervical spine to remove a bullet, which
was encroaching on my spinal cord. The
surgeons removed some bone, but I wasn't
that interested at the time about finding
out what exactly was done.
I wish I could tell you more about it but
if yours is lower back, then I'm sure you
will have more trouble recovering than I
did. It was very painful for about a month
(all spent in bed in the hospital) and
then I was able to finally walk around and
do some work.
I was very young at the time and
completely recovered within two months.
Today, at my age, I'm not sure I could
even survive a surgery like that. They had
to cut several nerves and now I have
numbness in parts of my neck and only
sweat on one side of my body. That means I
cannot tolerate heat as well because my
body can't cool itself as well.
I was in the air force at the time of the
laminectomy and another surgery, and
neither cost me a dime. My scar is about
12 inches because the surgeon needed room
to extract the bullet and repair the
damage around my spine. of course, that
was 35 years ago. I am sure there are many
less invasive procedures today.
|
lonestarguy
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 21 Jun 2007 Posts: 592 Location: , Hoosierland, USA
Thanks: 10
Thanked:1
Re: Laminectomy Knowledge a Relief Posted: 09-29-07 22:40pm
littleonefb
wrote:
Marie, you are right, leave the office and
presto tons more questions that you think
of that you should have asked, even if you
had a list a mile long to begin with.
And, yes, a little bit of knowledge can be
dangerous, reading on line can be even
worse. As my spine doc said to us as we
asked question after question, "Wow, wait
a minute. erase what you have been
reading on line from you mind and then we
will start again with the questions. Too
much incorrect info is on there and never
corrected or what you read is really well
out of date and then you come in to a docs
office panicked stricken with so much info
that isn't correct".
I had tried to find all the info I could
on laminotomy and recovery and almost
everything I read was mostly wrong. It
was really upsetting to find out that even
the most careful research we can do on
line is, many times not correct.
Just about the only thing correct that I
was able to find was that the recovery
period is less than for a laminectomy, but
still very difficult.
Not funny to find out that all you where
panicked about was a waste of time.
energy, effort and most of all panic and
lack of sleep.
We where planning for me having to go to a
rehab facility because we where reading
that you can't climb stairs and need help
just to move.
Oh, my what the truth was and how
different.
Anyway, my hubby was sold on my spinal doc
from day one too. Even before we ended up
talking about surgery as the only answer
to my problem. I think it was mostly
because this doc really cared about his
patients, took the time to explain
everything and was determined to do
whatever he could to relieve my pain and
avoid surgery unless it was necessary.
We liked the fact that this particular
Sports medicine practice was all
inclusive. They had orthos for every part
of the body, pain docs in the office,
their own xray department, and the MRI
facility downstairs as well. Everyone
worked as a team, met as a team as needed
with other docs in the office, pain doc
and ortho worked together to set up a plan
and they constantly where in touch with
the patients primary doc as well.
Mine too didn't use the "big guy"
hospitals unless absolutely necessary as
you just get lost in them, and he didn't
like his patients "being treated like a
number", when his office does their best
to treat each patient as an individual.
I didn't have fusion of any kind nor did I
have an facet problems and the only area
affected was the L4,L5,S1 with a lateral
stenosis. He saw no spondy or anything
else on the MRI. Of course the MRI was
done over a year ago, so that doesn't mean
that something else hasn't developed or
will develop in the future. He told me
that because there was a problem, I have
about a 50/50 shot of future problems and
there is nothing that can prevent that
from happening, nor can he see into the
future and tell me what will or will not
happen with my spine. He can only give me
statistical info.
My doc was positive that by doing a small,
partial laminotomy and shaving a part of
the lateral recess area, that my problem
would be solved. He did see a slight
flattening of the disc in the area at the
lateral recess area and believed that once
that area was widened, the disc would
bounce right back into shape and be fine.
He saw no evidence of spondy and went over
my MRI with a fine tooth comb and compared
mine to specifics in a huge book of MRI
pics of the spine. Docs call it the "MRI
bible of spine pics, and what normal vs
problem look like". He was able to match
mine to what he says my diagnosis was, but
couldn't match my MRI to any other problem
that any other doc I saw for other
opinions said was wrong.
Now those abdominal muscles, strengthening
them and lots of abd surgeries I can
relate to.
My lower abdominals and middle ones look
more like a road map and they started when
I was 17 with an emergency appendectomy.
I'm lucky to be alive after they ruptured
and left me in a coma for a few weeks.
Since that one I have had 3 lower
abdominal ones, before the advent of the
endoscope, just to repair GYN damage from
the original ruptured appendix, that also
forced the removal of one ovary and 1 tube
on the same side as the appendectomy.
They also removed scar tissue from the
original appendectomy 3 times.
Those abs where not in the greatest of
shape strength wise when I got pregnant
with my first 10 years later. It's hard
to get them in shape after being cut into
so many times.
My first was born my c-section in an
emergency and the bless doc did a
horizontal outer incision as it was
quicker to save my son's life. That split
the muscles down the middle from just
below the naval. That did them in and
it's all but impossible to get them really
strong again. When I had my second baby,
they went in and "unzipped" the original
c-section incision as I didn't dilate
enough after 52 hours of labor.
Well forget getting them strong again.
It's like having to separate sets of lower
abdominal muscles. They are as strong as
they will ever get and they are split down
the middle, with a sunk in area where the
incision line is and 2 bulges on either
side. Not pretty to look at either and it
doesn't matter how thin or heavy you are,
they look the same.
Oh, forgot a year and a half before I got
pregnant with my 2nd, I had my gallbladder
removed as an emergency, so there is one
huge incision in my midriff for that one.
Those muscles are pretty strong.
As for the no bending, twisting, turning,
stooping with a fusion. Those where my
orders for just a laminotomy as well. I
looked at the doc and said, "How the heck
am I supposed to wipe my rear on the
toilet. I'm very short and very short
arms. I couldn't do that when I was
little without twisting some?" He said
that was ok," but nothing else, for 6
weeks. But then you will be without the
pain that you are feeling, so how bad will
it be to get that result?" I looked at
him and just told him "give those
instructions to your wife and remember you
have 3 young kids and see what she says,
or better yet, have her follow those
orders for 1 week and see for yourself
what kind of disaster occurs in your
house."
Well he actually did give his wife those
instructions. She looked at him and told
him that instead she would make him a list
of all the things she wouldn't be able to
do with those rules and he will see what
the results will be that way. The next
time I saw the doc, before my surgery, he
told me what the results where with his
wife and all he could say was "be glad you
don't have any little kids at home as
well." I just laughed.
Believe me Marie, you do manage without
the bending, turning, twisting, stooping
bit. Just make a list of all the things
you have to do that involves that stuff
and work out how you can do any of them
with the restrictions. If you can't then
the stuff doesn't get done by you.
We went through every room in my house, 1
by 1, and moved things, rearranged the
kitchen and all that good stuff so that I
could be as independent as possible and
not do any harm to myself after surgery.
My hubby was home with me for a week after
surgery and it worked out fine. The
following week he went back to work and I
managed with bits of help from some
friends and my daughter, who was 23.
Spinal surgery can't end all the muscle
pain that you have, and my doc told me
that. He didnt' believe that all the pain
in my buttocks would go with the surgery
as he believed it was from weak and
possibly damaged muscle from lack of use
for so long. The old "what you don't use,
you lose" is true. In my case, some of
that muscle is damaged and won't heal or
respond to PT. Since it is weak in one
part I have to be careful to not over do.
I blew it and now it is torn and might
need surgery to repair.
But prior to that, I had some mild
discomfort from it, especially when the
weather changed or a storm is coming.
that I can live with and rarely took even
a regular strength tylenol for it.
It slows me down some in terms of the
length of time I can do things before I
have to stretch and rest. The thing is, I
can do everything I did before, just not
for the long period of time. I used to be
able to garden for hours on end without a
problem, So now I can go for an hour,
then I have to change positions and rest a
bit, but I can get in 4-6 hours of
gardening a day. I can't walk 4 miles at
a time, but I can do 2 miles then rest and
do 2 more, at least before the muscle tore
I could. So I have restrictions on my
activity. The thing is before the
surgery, I was in constant pain, couldn't
walk 10 steps and, in all honesty,
contemplated suicide if I had to live the
way I was living. So I have no
complaints.
Fusion may not be the way you want to go,
but it sounds like that your doc is being
very honest with you and telling you like
it is.
From a prior post you listed the following
problems
"The reason: Chronic progressive low back
pain. Bilateral lower extremity
radiculopaty. Several bulging discs,
L3-4 level diffuse disc bulge.
L4-5 level bilateral facet disease,
buckling of the ligamentum flavum,
moderate to sever spinal canal stenosis
with impingements of L4 nerve and L5 nerve
and a L5-S1 disc herniation. That was the
MRI result in January ordered by primary
physician
After 5 months of 2 lumbar Injections and
3 Transforaminal injections with little if
no relief, went to local orthopedic spine
specialist. X-ray found Spondylolisthesis.
Jan's. MRI report specifically stated: "No
spondylolisthesis is seen."
Advised no minimal surgery. Large
incision, discectomy, fusion, bonegraft
and of course the required blood donation
for such extensive surger.
Shock was my response and a walk out the
office door in a daze.
D.
That's several different things going on
in a couple of areas and I would think
that doing just the stenosis with no
fusion of any kind would weaken your spine
and cause problems down the road, if not
shortly after the surgery.
Your original doc also said "no minimally
invasive surgery, bonegraft" and all the
big gun stuff.
Your new doc has a different method and
sounds more up to date on what he can do
to help you.
Fusion can't be undone once it has been
done, on the other hand, I wouldn't want
to have further surgery to do it after the
surgery I had didn't work and made it
necessary to have the fusion either. I'd
also be worried about any further damage
done if I didn't have the fusion that the
new doc wanted to do now and ended up
having to do later, especially with
abdominal muscles like we both have. PT
can strengthen them some, but not the way
they should be.
I have talked with a couple of people in
the waiting room of my spinal docs office
who have had the laser surgery and where
now there for fusion because after several
years, spondy developed or got worse and
the spine is slipping all over the place
or they where there for follow-up after
having no fusion done with another doc,
they didn't want it and now they where
slipping as well.
What you have Marie, are 2 docs telling
you that you should have fusion with your
spinal problems. The difference is the
method of surgery that is so different.
If you are still unsure of what to do, you
can always get another opinion and see
what that doc says as well. I'm guessing
that you will hear fusion from another doc
as well because of all that the MRI shows.
The question may come down to how the
surgery is done, how confident you feel
with the doc and whether you want to risk
surgery with no fusion and hope that works
and if not face fusion at a later date.
If I felt confident with this new doc, I
would go with him. If I still had some
doubts I would get another opinion first.
Fran
My gosh, Fran! I reread your post and was
amazed at how many scars you have. And I
thought I had a lot of stitches. So sorry
you have had it so rough, especially your
deliveries and your appendix.
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comalhk414
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 26 Jul 2007 Posts: 8 Location: Texas
Wow Posted: 09-29-07 22:42pm
Man I am so glad that nurse noticed my
blood sugar the morning of my fusion
surgery resulting in it being cancelled. I
had not read this thread until this last
week, dont know why but glad I finally got
around to it. I am sending my MRI reports
to LSI and Bonati next week and the
insurance company states if they say I am
a viable candidate for the procedure then
chances are it will be covered. Thank God
for adult onset diabetes or I would have
been fused as of 9/19. Even the insurance
lady I talked to said it cost them less in
the long term for laser surgery as opposed
to the cost of fusion, but said it had to
be approved on a case by case basis
because it is listed as experimental.
"As for the no bending, twisting, turning,
stooping with a fusion. Those where my
orders for just a laminotomy as well. I
looked at the doc and said, "How the heck
am I supposed to wipe my rear on the
toilet. I'm very short and very short
arms. I couldn't do that when I was little
without twisting some?"
Fran, I knew it by your forum name that
you were not tall. I think in one post I
even asked you how tall you were. But
after I read the above in your last post,
it took me about five minutes of laying on
the floor and laughing before I could
begin this post.
Let me say, you are me or if it sounds
better, I am you with an added 10 years.
I was on the throne one morning and the
very same thought came to me. "How can I
not bend or twist?" My engineer hubby had
problems helping me put on a bra post
shoulder surgery with a pain pack still
inserted into the shoulder joint. I
thought as I sat there in pristine
bemusement, "this one is going to put him
over the edge". He didn't even want to
change diapers when the kids were little.
You know, there ought to be courses given
to people who are considering marriage as
to just what "in sickness and in health"
means!!!
BTW, I sent you a pm with an answer to
what you asked.
And everything you said about
reading on line is true, true, true.
Marie B.
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Carol Lumbar
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 35 Location: Sherman, TX,
Thanks: 1
Thanked:0
Posted: 09-30-07 13:13pm
I just lost my post again . . .
and it wasn't even very long. I honestly
can't stand this. It is soooo frustrating
to spend precious time responding and
poof, it's gone. I'm sorry guys for
venting . . .
You all have such good things to say.
Tthanks MB for thinking of me. I'm able
to sit much better than I can walk. And
yes, school start up is always crazy. I
teach two college courses after my regular
school day. So things are hectic to say
the least. Something has to give and
unfortunately it's been my posting, (many
times, not by my choice!)
Thanks Fran for your thorough, detailed
response to all our questions!!
Unfortunately, when I realized I was
experiencing "drop foot" when I couldn't
walk across a room on my tip toes without
my right heel "dropping" to the floor.
Needless to say I was shocked and quite
concerned. Does it ever get better after
surgery? Has anyone ever regained this
ability? I'm not going to join a circus
or anything, but why is knowing I can't
walk on my tip toes, so darn important . .
.??? It's not like this gal ever "tiptoed
through life!"
Anyhow, enjoying the laminectomy vs.
laminotomy discussion. I really think it
is just a matter of time before everyone
with back problems faces the inevitable
"fusion" to get by. So, if getting more
opinions helps to make the decision, then
go for it. But if they are all pointing
you in this direction and I remember
reading, you will know when the time is
right to do this, then do it. I think we
are all faced with how long before
irreversible nerve damage? How do we
arrive at our own individual decisions???
We can have identical diagnoses and still
have different outcomes. Too many
variables to even consider. Hope and a
prayer, lots of research and questions,
till we run out of both.
In situ means in place . . . it seems that
your doctor is considering the
possibilities of handling the fusion at
that time. Bone graft or cadaver? (sp?)
with instrumentation or w/o? It seems
like you have a thorough, considerate
doctor who is weighing the options along
with you. If you haven't run out of
questions yet, give yourself permission to
keep asking them, till you do. And thank
you for sharing them with us in the
process. You could be a journalist, it
was like being there with you!!! Good
job.
Most people choose their doctors because
of proximity to where they live and follow
up care. That is a smart reason, in and of
itself.
Regardless of the type of surgery, PT is
important. Strengthening our core muscles
is not only popular right now, but
essential. MB, I think you're on the
right track and we will "back" you 100%
Take care.
C
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Carol Lumbar
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 35 Location: Sherman, TX,
Thanks: 1
Thanked:0
Posted: 09-30-07 13:18pm
I just re-read my response and felt like a
gerbil on a treadmill . . . trying to be
sooo succinct and quick in my reply for
fear of timing out! Whew! apparently I
made it. Have a great week everyone.
Will check in with you soon.
C
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RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
Online Information Posted: 09-30-07 15:16pm
Hello Fran and Marie, and All
This thread is moving SOOooo fast I can't
even keep up. What did catch my eye as I
glanced through the posts was about Online
Information.
I would like to temper what your doctor
said about online information. Oh yes,
one must be careful and consider the
source of the information. ANY source in
my opinion. That includes doctors, and
everyone else.
Be very careful in just throwing away
every bit of information you have obtained
online. THERE is GOOD information along
with the bad.
Just thnk back to the days before the
internet. How much knowledge did you have
then? How much information could you put
your hands on? VERY LITTLE!!!! We have
all come a long long way BECAUSE of the
internet. Is there misinformation? Sure,
without a doubt. Is there misinformation
in the newpaper? You bet. Is there
misinformation coming from the White
House? You know there is. Is there
misinformation in the scientific
literature? I know there is because I
have reviewed many a manuscript. And the
list goes on and on. Life is not simply.
It does take reseasch and a lot of it to
VERIFY one piece of information against
another.
It is not my intent to cause you confusion
or alarm. It is my intent for you to not
just threw online information out the door
because one medical professional said to
do so.
I could have slugged my spine surgeon when
I made some reference to knowledge I had
obtained about whatever I don't even
remember. His response - "A little
knowledge is a dangerous thing" As if to
say I should just believe what he says.
As if I should go around with blinders on.
One must be careful not to draw
conclusions with a "little knowledge",
however, TRYING to become knowledgable is
far FAR better than blindly accepting what
one person says. Many doctors have this
"know it all" attitude". Some as we have
learned on this thread can be very closed
mind. Closed minded about laser surgery
as one example. And some doctors don't
even keep up with the advances in
medicine.
Bottom line - Always question what you
hear or read. RESEARCH, RESEARCH,
RESEARCH!!!! And VERIFY, VERIFY,
VERIFY!!!!
Food for thought.
RichT
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Marie B.
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Ohio
a Funny Thing Happened On My Way to the Forum. Posted: 09-30-07 20:25pm
Good Advice Rich. You too, Carol.
Another thing I was wondering. Do you
find as you go through this very difficult
spine problem that there are times, when
it leaves you in peace for a short period
of time?
I have been dealing with this pain in my
low back, buttocks and thighs for a year
this August. I've been through every
conservative type treatment one can have.
After the no relief from steroid
injections and the need to take 4 Advils
and 1 Ultracet daily at one dose in the
morning, I could get through the day
comfortably. I could never spread the
meds over the day. I had to hit it the
minute I got up in the morning. If I
didn't whack the pain, it would work
itself into such a lather that my knees
would come so close to buckling from the
pain. And it was a weird type of pain.
It would start with a pressure pain
exhibiting itself by making me fell like I
was being squeezed to death in my behind
and legs. But sometimes it would be more
on my left side and then that side would
stop hurting and my right side would begin
and the worse pain would come when
everything in the center of my low back
felt that squeezing pressure pain that
would make me run to my chair. I spent a
lot of time in my recliner in the
beginning. Because I would have to take
breaks from the pills because my stomach
would say "enough already." Then it would
be back to the recliner.
Once the injections began, my PM wanted me
to see how long I could go with out taking
pills just to see what the injections were
accomplishing. I would have days at a
time when I would not take any of the
Advil and Ultracet and I might feel pretty
good, but I always had an Ultracet in my
pocket just in case one of those screaming
pain episode would begin. Although I
would stay away from the pills, that did
not mean I would not have some level of
pain. My PM always was convinced that my
problem with pain was really from the
facet degeneration.
A whole year I would take those Advils and
Ultracets even with the injections on the
days when I knew I would have a 5 pain
level. It wasn't until July that I began
to face the fact that surgery on the spine
might be in my future. That's when I
found the Old Forum, closed, but still on
line. That's when I chased down Rich.
And then he advised me on this Forum.
This was when I began deciding that
surgery was in my future. My PM stil
thought that there was still a chance that
surgery might not be needed.
I was after my last injection in June that
I had a really painful episode that I said
to myself, "Self, see a surgeon." And my
PCP arranged it. I waited an entire month
for that appointment which put me in the
month of August, late August. That visit
ended with me in shock and daze at his
conclusions and a perscription for an
anti-convulslant in my hand ended that
visit. Four days later at my appointment
with my PM, that perscription was nixed by
my PM. It was August 31.
He then gave me a perscription for
Celebrex and one for Lyrica. The reason
he gave me the Rx for Celebrex was my
thoughts about how anti inflammatories
helped more then a pain pill taken alone.
The instructions were to take the Celebrex
1 200 mg in AM and 1 200mg in the PM. But
he also gave me a lot of flexibility. Try
2 in the morning or 2 in the evening and
see how they work with you. I was
instructed not to go over 400 mg per day.
Then I was instructed that if they did not
work I was to go directly to the Lyrica.
(I was reluctant about the Lyrica because
I remembered Carol saying it made her
"fuzzy." I get fuzzy too very easily by
certain meds.)
I told the Forum that I found myself as I
was trying to juggle the Celebrex to be
taking 600 mg a day because I was still
experiencing pain when I would keep it at
400mg. And I didn't want to go on Lyrica.
A funny thing happened the week I took
the 600 mg. I got warnings from Fran and
everyone was concerned about taking
Celebrex. But I have to admit for an
entire week I took 600mg with no one aware
other then people on the Forum. I
struggled to reduce the Celebrex to 400 mg
per day and I succeeded. For one week, I
took 400 mg daily and I did really good
and I wasn't sleepy and I didn't spend a
lot of time in the recliner.
It was then time for me to go to my second
surgeon's appointment. And I was told to
take no meds prior to the visit. So I
didn't. I was very uncertain about going
for so long without anything so I put my 2
Celebrex in my pocket ready to take after
the evaluation by the surgeon was over.
I have to tell you that I have never had
some of the symptoms that some of you
report on. For instance, my pulses are
very strong in my feet. I have excellent
reflexes on exam. There is no numbness
nor tingling anywhere and these symptoms
have never occurred during this entire
year of pain battle.
So I took no Celebrex for a period of 24
hours. All I had was a minor shock or
two. And I handled it pretty well with no
meds. But I did go back to the 400 mg.
the next day, not because I experience
pain, but because I had a lot to do and I
didn't want pain to interfere with my
day.
For the last two days, I have dropped my
dose of Celebrex down to 1 200 mg.
capsules. For two days I would just feel
achiness in my low back, buttocks and
thighs but at a 1 or 2 level. I was
amazed. I haven't taken an Ultracet since
August 31.
Already I am wondering, knowing all that
my MRI shows, could one continue on 1
Celebrex 200 mg. tablet, have no pain and
maybe not have to have surgery. I may be
too early in thinking this, but Rich is
still postponing surgery, so is Carol and
I am wondering if this Celebrex pill will
keep me away from surgery for another
year.
I know "if wishes were horses, beggars
would ride," but is this a possibility.
Is it more important to stay away from
surgery if one pill keeps you from pain?
What is best? Do a pill a day and avoid
surgery for awhile and see what happens.
Is this a good option? I have to monitor
what is happening to me. Do I continue to
buy myself time before what may be the
inevitable. Decisions, decisions,
decisions.
I see my PM on November 9....that's a long
way away. Anything could happen by then.
But if this Celebrex does good, it would
go a long way in proving that my PM is
right. Even though I have lots of issues
in my spine, for the present, it is the
bi- lateral degenerated facets that are
causing my pain.
So we continue the monitoring of the
problem for the present.
I hope my long detailed posts help others
in analyzing their pain to aid in decision
making.
Marie B.
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Marie B.
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Ohio
Carol's Question. Does Anybody Get Better After Surgery. Posted: 09-30-07 20:40pm
Carol, That's a good question. I don't
know anybody who has not had one spine
operation that still didn't have some kind
of pain afterwards.
We only get to talk to people who are in
the doctor's offices. Some are there for
their second, third or fourth spine
surgeries. Doesn't sound good does it?
The only way I can even think to begin to
ask if people get better is to walk with a
sign on a stick that asks, Did you get
better after one spinal surgery?
And people would think I had lost it. I
don't know how you can get the real story
about post op recoveries.
One man that my husband knows had two
spinal surgering during the 90's. He then
bought a Select Comfort bed. I don't know
which series. They go from the 5000
series to the 9000 series. He did say he
had pain after his second surgery and to
this day he is convinced his Select Comfor
cured his pain. He hasn't had a problem
with his back for over 10 years.
But you can't ask him what he had done
because most people haven't the foggies
idea of what all was wrong with them in
the beginning. The first thing out of
their mouths is "slipped disc." No real
information there.
So we will never have accurate information
on who was cured. In fact what makes me
upset about most of the testimonials on
the laser web sites is that they never say
what was wrong with them in the first
place in getting laser surgery other then
"I had laser Lumbar surgery." What does
that tell you......nothing.
We remain in the dark. Except for Joebob
and Carrianne. And speaking of Carrianne.
We haven't heard how she is doing
lately.
Marie B.
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Marie B.
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Ohio
Soldier Boy Posted: 09-30-07 20:52pm
Hey soldier boy from the Lone Star State.
I love your little white mouse brushing
his teeth with the hair brush. He is
adorable. Out here in the cornfields of
Ohio, we have all colors of little mice
but none have I caught brushing their
teeth.
I have a friend who just retired from the
special forces. He was a helicoptor pilot
and was in Afghanistan. He had a a
massive number of compressed discs in his
spine. They had to go in through the
abdomen to get to the areas to decompress
the discs and shore up fractured
vertebrae.
He said he had more trouble healing from
the surgical entry from the front then he
had spine pain. He seems to be doing well
now, Doesn't talk much about pain. His
only interest now is taking care of his 6
kids. Wonderful family.
He had a very real religious experience
that he doesn't talk much about to people
other then his very closest friends. A
wonderful young man. He was a Marine and
when he uses the words "semper fi" he
gives a much deeper meaning to the words.
We love our soldier boys. I particularly
love my son-in-law, another soldier boy.
For me, its nothing but the best for our
soldier boys.
Marie B.
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RichT
Active User, Really EHEALTHy
Joined: 22 Jul 2007 Posts: 910
Thanks: 21
Thanked:0
"a Funny Thing Happened On My Way to the Forum" Posted: 10-01-07 00:33am
Hello Marie,
I read every word of your post. I was
absorbed into reading each word. My heart
and prayers go out to you in the pain that
you have and are suffering.
Marie, I'm very glad that Celebrex has and
is helping you. When I was first trying
to find the right antiinflamitory (sp?)
for myself I remember talking with a
fellow at the pharmacy. He said that for
him Celebrex was the only one that helped
him. I could almost feel his sense of
relief. I know that if I go for a couple
of days without Voltaren (because of a
needed test) my body definitely knows it.
The joints in my fingers become inflamed,
hurt, and my fingers don't open and close
easily. It is then I realize/remember how
important Voltaren is for me. I couldn't
function without it.
"Do you find as you go through this very
difficult spine problem that there are
times, when it leaves you in peace for a
short period of time?" - Very definitely
YES!!!! High atmospheric pressure like
today and yesterday and I almost feel good
as new. It is then I can really enjoy
working in our gardens. Like planting a
seven foot Japanese maple tree yesterday,
a 5 foot 'Sky Pencil' holly and pansies
today. On those low atmospheric pressure
days it is more time in the recliner. On
the bad days I try to remember that there
will be better days ahead.
Marie, I'm glad you found the old forum,
and now are a part of this great family of
friends on this thread.
Regarding Lycrica - I tried it for a few
days, got bad side effects and stopped
taking it. Pain meds like hydrocodone
mess me up more than they help.
"Is it more important to stay away from
surgery if one pill keeps you from pain?
What is best? Do a pill a day and avoid
surgery for awhile and see what happens.
Is this a good option? I have to monitor
what is happening to me. Do I continue to
buy myself time before what may be the
inevitable. Decisions, decisions,
decisions." - Marie, some important
questions and thoughts. I take a number
of different pills to keep this ole body
going, and I'll continue to do so. Amoung
them is Voltaren. Yes, you, Carol, I and
others are at that point of "monitoring"
our bodies to determine what the next step
should be. I remember Dr W's advice "No
need for surgery until you can't walk
across a room." And my PM doc's advice
"stay away from the knife as long as you
can." Far better than my spine surgeon's
"You need to have spine surgery within the
next 6 months." It is a delicate line we
walk, not knowing the path to take. I'm
with Carol in letting God guide me along
this path.
For me at this point, if one pill keeps
the knife away I'll stay with the pill.
If an epidural keeps the inflamation to
the area around a pinched nerve down so I
don't have pain in my leg and/or tingling
in my leg, then I'll stay with the
epidural.
Now to that all important question - "Does
anybody get better after surgery?" Some
like Joe do, at least for a time. Joe put
things very well in one of his posts. He
is thankful that his surgery at Bonati was
successful and he is back enjoying life.
However, he also realizes and understands
that other parts of his back may cause him
difficulty in the future and thus he may
need additional surgery. Marie, with the
complexity of the spine, I don't believe
one can ever say "cured" with spinal
surgery, just hopefully helping to give us
time to enjoy life.
Well, its 1:30 am and time to hit the sack
(air mattress).
Take care.
RichT
P.S. - Thank goodness for two monitors,
sure makes posting easier.
|
admin
Advanced Support Team
Joined: 26 Jun 2003 Posts: 3454 Location: Coral Springs, FL USA
Thanks: 133
Thanked:19
online
Re: How to Use the Smileys On the Post a Reply Posted: 10-01-07 03:28am
littleonefb
wrote:
marie, I don't know about
the fancy smileys but do with the ones
listed on this forum.
To use those you do the following.
Go to the bottom of the page and click on
post a reply. don't use the quick
response.
Once on the post a reply you will see the
smileys and where it says "view more
emotions.
Where ever you want one of them to appear
in your message just click on one of the
smiley pics. It will show up in your
message as a bunch of numbers, letters,
punctution and/or a combo of any and all
of them. When you either preview the
message first or just click submit, the
smileys will show up in the message.
Now if someone can tell us how to get all
the real fancy ones, I'd love those too,
but there is a message under the help on
this forum that too many smileys in a post
are not allowed or something to that
affect and they delete them. If
you click preview, you can be sure that
you have the smileys in the right place,
used the ones you wanted or make changes.
Just scroll down the page a bit.
Fran
Hey, Fran. Lee @ Admin here...we're
working on expanding our portfolio of
smilies. If you have some you'd like to
recommend, you can either PM me with the
URL for the source location, or email me
at: administration@ehealthforum.com.
Perhaps there are a few smilies that are
related to directly to back conditions
that would be perfect. So, just let me
know.
Any other suggestions? Post to the
Suggestion Forum or send us a comment
form:
I've communicated the time-out issue to
our developers, and have scheduled a
meeting with them this week. I'll let you
know what's going on via this post.
Best,
Lee
Carrianne
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 09 Aug 2007 Posts: 107 Location: Tampa, FL
Posted: 10-01-07 10:14am
Hi everyone. Sorry I've been a little
absent lately. I'm keeping up with the
reading, but don't have a lot of
experience with the latest topics so can't
offer anything to the table.
My mom left this morning to head back to
New York and I think I'll be going back to
work next Monday, maybe do half-days for a
couple weeks before I jump back into full
time.
I still have some pains in my back (mostly
stiffness) and legs (off and on). I
decided not to jump the gun and go in for
more surgery just yet. I want to listen to
my body and just give it more time. If I'm
not 100% by next year I'll rethink the
plan.
Because they can only do one disc and one
side of the disc at a time, I could need a
total of 4 surgeries. I have 2 affected
discs and symptoms in both sides.
Sooo...I'll pray for patience because I'm
not usually good at that!!
I hope you're all doing well and I'll
continue to pray for everyone here. You
are all an inspiration to me. The amount
of pain we're all in and yet we stay so
strong (even when we don't think we are)!
Thank you for encouraging me!
God bless,
Carrianne
|
Marie B.
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy
Joined: 28 Aug 2007 Posts: 231 Location: Ohio
Two Discs Posted: 10-01-07 14:40pm
Carriane, Is the reason Bonati can do
only one disc at a time because you have
disc problems on two different levels and
the levels are not right next to each
other. Or are you saying the vertebrae
are next to each other, such as the L5 and
S1, but the herniations are on either
side (left on one and right on one) of
each of the vertebraes, so you are
required to have more surgery then
expected.
I was puzzled when you said they can only
do a disc, one side at a time.
I understood with microsurgery as the
laser centers procedures are, they can do
two levels at a time, eg. L4 and L5. In
your post, are you saying one of your
discs are on the right for one lumbar
verterbrae and there is one on the left on
another Lumbar vertebrae? I am
reiterating this because it can be easy to
get the wrong concept to what you are
saying.
With your two surgeries behind you, just
what did they actually fix for you?
I think this is important for spinal
posters to understand because if the
surgical procedures mount up in number, so
will costs. This may also be why many
spine doctors are negative to endoscopic
surgery. Therefore they will do an open
back surgery to take care of all of the
problems at once.
If a person doesn't have full
understanding of what is involved, it is
easy to become confused during the
stressful decision making that a person is
required to make. And to do it while in
pain makes it even more difficult.
It is these uncertainties that are behind
so many of us going to multiple doctors.
You never know what you are going to learn
that is new about your spine problem. All
the reading in the world will not answer
questions. Even all doctors are not good
at explaining everything to a patient.
And when we talk to each other, we all
have different concepts as to what is
going on. Worse. we could have the
identical problem, same level vertebrae,
same sided disc, same symptoms and because
we are different have very different
outcomes to surgery.
My spine specialist said to me that before
a surgeon actually enters the back for the
spine surgery, with all of the MRI
Reports, X-Rays etc. he is still making an
"educated guess" of what he can do for me,
the patient. Therefore when a doctor
tells you what he believes needs to be
done, once he is at the visible site of
the problem, the educated guess may have
to give way to reality as to what is
before him.
This is not to put down the "educated
guess". The educated guess is most
appropriate. That's why we count so much
on the surgeons' knowledge and experience
plus his God given capabilities. The
doctor just can not say 100% that is all
there is until he views with his own eyes
the cause of the pain. Post Op, the
surgeon is forced to wait until he sees if
he has accomplished the goal both he and
the patient are looking for. Freedom from
pain for the patient.
I think your situation gives prudent
thought to a person determining with the
right doctor if or if not they are a
candidate for micro surgery. And then if
the doctor says the patient is a
candidate, then the patient has to
understand what devils can hide in the
details. It's like being behind the 8
ball.
Never the less, I hope you are more free
of pain now then when you approached your
first surgical operation. It is a good
decision for you that you have made in
taking a year off before you enter into
another surgical spine procedure.
We think of you all of the time and pray
for your wellness.
Marie B.
|
jimare
New User, Becoming EHEALTHy
Joined: 01 Oct 2007 Posts: 43 Location: ,
Hello to All Posted: 10-01-07 16:30pm
Thanks for letting me know about this site
RichT. I have been reading the posts for
2 days now.....whew! I am up to page 14
and counting. Lots and lots of
interesting, valuable info, especially re
Laser Surgery. Nice to read how well
JoeBob is doing. I wondered how he was
getting along because I never see any of
his posts on Spine-Health anymore
If
you click preview, you can be sure that
you have the smileys in the right place,
used the ones you wanted or make changes.
Just scroll down the page a bit.
