Marie, good question and I wondered the same thing in the conversation that hubby friend and I had with my spinal doc.

His answer was this that he wrote down for me. " patients worry that the “removing of the roof” as lots of doctors call it, leaves spinal nerves uncovered and unprotected. However, the nerves are still well protected after the surgery by the muscle and the spinal joint which surrounds the spinal canal."
They do not put the lamina back after they are done. It is gone forever.

As for the incision and the pressure from the waist of pants. My incision was for the L4,L5,S1 and is a one inch incision and is about 2 inches or so below my waist. I have not had any problem wearing pants since my surgery, except for one pair of dungarees that had a low seam in the back, part of the design and that did go right over the incision and didn't feel so great for about 5 months, and I felt too much pressure from a belt for about the same length of time. For the last 10 months, I've been wearing all the clothes that I wore before surgery without any problems.

Actually, my biggest complaint was with the cold weather in New England. The incision may only be one inch, but it didn't like our winters. Every time I went outside, within minutes it felt like an ice cube was being rubbed up and down that 1 inch incision. It didn't hurt, was very annoying, sort of like a zipper affect going up and down that one spot all winter. Drove me nuts.
Doc said it will be gone this winter. Told him "I'm holding you to it, cause if it is still there and you caused it doing the surgery, you should have to suffer the same thing." He thought it was funny, but it was really annoying.
Bad enough it was freezing outside but having an ice cube feel zipping up and down that one spot was not an enjoyable experience.

I wouldn't worry about the nerves not being protected.

Fran

Hi Rich,

OK I tried this method before and just tried it again. it doesn't work. Had hubby the computer "geek" try it too and zippo, does not work.

2. You can manually go "back" to your post if you find that you're logged out. Then, right click to the ehealthforum home page, open this page in a new window, and log in again. Your message should be preserved and you should be able to send it as soon as you're logged in."

I would still prefer not to be logged out at all. Have the same problem with my e-mail too, so that's where I figured out my elaborate method to post there and here as well.

I would think that we should be able to have at least 1 hour before the system knocks us off and we have to log in again, but even longer would be good.

Sometimes, I've had to go back on the thread for info while responding or I want to google something to check out if I have the right info.

Hope that gives you a start on how long we should have.

Fran

Thanks Fran for that bit of information on the Laminectomy.
A person can walk into a doctor's office with a list of 20 questions, spend 2 hours with the doctor, go home and the brain can come up with 20 more questions. My husband now is telling me that I read too much, think too much and worry too much. He has made the decision for surgery with this last doctor. I'm not ready yet to say "go". Why? it's the fusion part that is my problem.

Fran, did you have fusion of any type for spondy? I don't remember if you addressed that in the past. I don't even know if spondy is the only reason they do fusion in the growing old crowd.
The doctor said he is 100% sure that removing the cause of the stenosis will give me immediate relief in regard to the buttock and thigh pain, but he is not sure that the low back pain will be completely gone. That was the response when he saw my hesitancy about fusion....of any kind. He admitted that my "spondy" was not severe, actually it was a low grade spondy but there is enough of it that peeks(my word) into the nerve canal, that makes him say there is a possibility if I don't have the fusion, I may still get the low back pain.

I remember reading on the Old Forum, one of the posters said she had talked her doctor out of fusion and now she has to go back for a repeat of the surgery that she talked the surgeon out of doing. I don't remember her name. But I understood that initial belief of "Well why don't we see if the stenosis removal can take care of everything first." Because that is my thinking.

Once fusion takes place, it can never be reversed. Post Op, the instructions are, don't bend very much and don't twist. If I counted the number of times I bend just picking up after the spouse of the house, and making a king size bed is all lifting and twisting, I could enter the Hall of Fame for the number of times I bend

The doctor said he would do the surgery on the stenosis if I was that adamant against fusion but he would start me on an immediate regimen of back strengthening exercises. Which in turn means to me those abdominals have to be really improved. I have 4 areas on my abdomen that have scar tissue from past abdominal surgeries. I never could get them back in shape even when I was younger. Will strengtening exercises actually overcome the spondy, or will it just prevent it from slipping further? Decisions, decisions, decisions.

Marie B

Rick, I agree with Fran. I would think it would be better if they just dropped the log out all together. But I don't run a website like this and I don't know how many people would be so interested about invading such a website for knowledge. So far, I'm O.K.
and get my messages in on time. What I am still trying to figure out are the primvate message boxes. I can't tell if a message is sent or not when I submit because I can still find it in the out box. So does it go or does it not go?

Marie B

Marie, you are right, leave the office and presto tons more questions that you think of that you should have asked, even if you had a list a mile long to begin with.
And, yes, a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, reading on line can be even worse. As my spine doc said to us as we asked question after question, "Wow, wait a minute. erase what you have been reading on line from you mind and then we will start again with the questions. Too much incorrect info is on there and never corrected or what you read is really well out of date and then you come in to a docs office panicked stricken with so much info that isn't correct".

I had tried to find all the info I could on laminotomy and recovery and almost everything I read was mostly wrong. It was really upsetting to find out that even the most careful research we can do on line is, many times not correct.

Just about the only thing correct that I was able to find was that the recovery period is less than for a laminectomy, but still very difficult.
Not funny to find out that all you where panicked about was a waste of time. energy, effort and most of all panic and lack of sleep.
We where planning for me having to go to a rehab facility because we where reading that you can't climb stairs and need help just to move.

Oh, my what the truth was and how different.

Anyway, my hubby was sold on my spinal doc from day one too. Even before we ended up talking about surgery as the only answer to my problem. I think it was mostly because this doc really cared about his patients, took the time to explain everything and was determined to do whatever he could to relieve my pain and avoid surgery unless it was necessary.
We liked the fact that this particular Sports medicine practice was all inclusive. They had orthos for every part of the body, pain docs in the office, their own xray department, and the MRI facility downstairs as well. Everyone worked as a team, met as a team as needed with other docs in the office, pain doc and ortho worked together to set up a plan and they constantly where in touch with the patients primary doc as well.
Mine too didn't use the "big guy" hospitals unless absolutely necessary as you just get lost in them, and he didn't like his patients "being treated like a number", when his office does their best to treat each patient as an individual.

I didn't have fusion of any kind nor did I have an facet problems and the only area affected was the L4,L5,S1 with a lateral stenosis. He saw no spondy or anything else on the MRI. Of course the MRI was done over a year ago, so that doesn't mean that something else hasn't developed or will develop in the future. He told me that because there was a problem, I have about a 50/50 shot of future problems and there is nothing that can prevent that from happening, nor can he see into the future and tell me what will or will not happen with my spine. He can only give me statistical info.

My doc was positive that by doing a small, partial laminotomy and shaving a part of the lateral recess area, that my problem would be solved. He did see a slight flattening of the disc in the area at the lateral recess area and believed that once that area was widened, the disc would bounce right back into shape and be fine. He saw no evidence of spondy and went over my MRI with a fine tooth comb and compared mine to specifics in a huge book of MRI pics of the spine. Docs call it the "MRI bible of spine pics, and what normal vs problem look like". He was able to match mine to what he says my diagnosis was, but couldn't match my MRI to any other problem that any other doc I saw for other opinions said was wrong.

Now those abdominal muscles, strengthening them and lots of abd surgeries I can relate to.

My lower abdominals and middle ones look more like a road map and they started when I was 17 with an emergency appendectomy. I'm lucky to be alive after they ruptured and left me in a coma for a few weeks.

Since that one I have had 3 lower abdominal ones, before the advent of the endoscope, just to repair GYN damage from the original ruptured appendix, that also forced the removal of one ovary and 1 tube on the same side as the appendectomy. They also removed scar tissue from the original appendectomy 3 times.
Those abs where not in the greatest of shape strength wise when I got pregnant with my first 10 years later. It's hard to get them in shape after being cut into so many times.

My first was born my c-section in an emergency and the damn doc did a horizontal outer incision as it was quicker to save my son's life. That split the muscles down the middle from just below the naval. That did them in and it's all but impossible to get them really strong again. When I had my second baby, they went in and "unzipped" the original c-section incision as I didn't dilate enough after 52 hours of labor.
Well forget getting them strong again. It's like having to separate sets of lower abdominal muscles. They are as strong as they will ever get and they are split down the middle, with a sunk in area where the incision line is and 2 bulges on either side. Not pretty to look at either and it doesn't matter how thin or heavy you are, they look the same.
Oh, forgot a year and a half before I got pregnant with my 2nd, I had my gallbladder removed as an emergency, so there is one huge incision in my midriff for that one. Those muscles are pretty strong.

As for the no bending, twisting, turning, stooping with a fusion. Those where my orders for just a laminotomy as well. I looked at the doc and said, "How the heck am I supposed to wipe my rear on the toilet. I'm very short and very short arms. I couldn't do that when I was little without twisting some?" He said that was ok," but nothing else, for 6 weeks. But then you will be without the pain that you are feeling, so how bad will it be to get that result?" I looked at him and just told him "give those instructions to your wife and remember you have 3 young kids and see what she says, or better yet, have her follow those orders for 1 week and see for yourself what kind of disaster occurs in your house."
Well he actually did give his wife those instructions. She looked at him and told him that instead she would make him a list of all the things she wouldn't be able to do with those rules and he will see what the results will be that way. The next time I saw the doc, before my surgery, he told me what the results where with his wife and all he could say was "be glad you don't have any little kids at home as well." I just laughed.

Believe me Marie, you do manage without the bending, turning, twisting, stooping bit. Just make a list of all the things you have to do that involves that stuff and work out how you can do any of them with the restrictions. If you can't then the stuff doesn't get done by you.
We went through every room in my house, 1 by 1, and moved things, rearranged the kitchen and all that good stuff so that I could be as independent as possible and not do any harm to myself after surgery. My hubby was home with me for a week after surgery and it worked out fine. The following week he went back to work and I managed with bits of help from some friends and my daughter, who was 23.

Spinal surgery can't end all the muscle pain that you have, and my doc told me that. He didnt' believe that all the pain in my buttocks would go with the surgery as he believed it was from weak and possibly damaged muscle from lack of use for so long. The old "what you don't use, you lose" is true. In my case, some of that muscle is damaged and won't heal or respond to PT. Since it is weak in one part I have to be careful to not over do. I blew it and now it is torn and might need surgery to repair.
But prior to that, I had some mild discomfort from it, especially when the weather changed or a storm is coming. that I can live with and rarely took even a regular strength tylenol for it.
It slows me down some in terms of the length of time I can do things before I have to stretch and rest. The thing is, I can do everything I did before, just not for the long period of time. I used to be able to garden for hours on end without a problem, So now I can go for an hour, then I have to change positions and rest a bit, but I can get in 4-6 hours of gardening a day. I can't walk 4 miles at a time, but I can do 2 miles then rest and do 2 more, at least before the muscle tore I could. So I have restrictions on my activity. The thing is before the surgery, I was in constant pain, couldn't walk 10 steps and, in all honesty, contemplated suicide if I had to live the way I was living. So I have no complaints.

Fusion may not be the way you want to go, but it sounds like that your doc is being very honest with you and telling you like it is.

From a prior post you listed the following problems

"The reason: Chronic progressive low back pain. Bilateral lower extremity radiculopaty. Several bulging discs,
L3-4 level diffuse disc bulge.
L4-5 level bilateral facet disease, buckling of the ligamentum flavum, moderate to sever spinal canal stenosis with impingements of L4 nerve and L5 nerve and a L5-S1 disc herniation. That was the MRI result in January ordered by primary physician

After 5 months of 2 lumbar Injections and 3 Transforaminal injections with little if no relief, went to local orthopedic spine specialist. X-ray found Spondylolisthesis. Jan's. MRI report specifically stated: "No spondylolisthesis is seen."

Advised no minimal surgery. Large incision, discectomy, fusion, bonegraft and of course the required blood donation for such extensive surger.
Shock was my response and a walk out the office door in a daze.
D.

That's several different things going on in a couple of areas and I would think that doing just the stenosis with no fusion of any kind would weaken your spine and cause problems down the road, if not shortly after the surgery.
Your original doc also said "no minimally invasive surgery, bonegraft" and all the big gun stuff.

Your new doc has a different method and sounds more up to date on what he can do to help you.

Fusion can't be undone once it has been done, on the other hand, I wouldn't want to have further surgery to do it after the surgery I had didn't work and made it necessary to have the fusion either. I'd also be worried about any further damage done if I didn't have the fusion that the new doc wanted to do now and ended up having to do later, especially with abdominal muscles like we both have. PT can strengthen them some, but not the way they should be.

I have talked with a couple of people in the waiting room of my spinal docs office who have had the laser surgery and where now there for fusion because after several years, spondy developed or got worse and the spine is slipping all over the place or they where there for follow-up after having no fusion done with another doc, they didn't want it and now they where slipping as well.

What you have Marie, are 2 docs telling you that you should have fusion with your spinal problems. The difference is the method of surgery that is so different.
If you are still unsure of what to do, you can always get another opinion and see what that doc says as well. I'm guessing that you will hear fusion from another doc as well because of all that the MRI shows. The question may come down to how the surgery is done, how confident you feel with the doc and whether you want to risk surgery with no fusion and hope that works and if not face fusion at a later date.

If I felt confident with this new doc, I would go with him. If I still had some doubts I would get another opinion first.

Fran

Fran and Marie:

Many years ago, I had a laminectomy in my cervical spine to remove a bullet, which was encroaching on my spinal cord. The surgeons removed some bone, but I wasn't that interested at the time about finding out what exactly was done.

I wish I could tell you more about it but if yours is lower back, then I'm sure you will have more trouble recovering than I did. It was very painful for about a month (all spent in bed in the hospital) and then I was able to finally walk around and do some work.

I was very young at the time and completely recovered within two months. Today, at my age, I'm not sure I could even survive a surgery like that. They had to cut several nerves and now I have numbness in parts of my neck and only sweat on one side of my body. That means I cannot tolerate heat as well because my body can't cool itself as well.

I was in the air force at the time of the laminectomy and another surgery, and neither cost me a dime. My scar is about 12 inches because the surgeon needed room to extract the bullet and repair the damage around my spine. of course, that was 35 years ago. I am sure there are many less invasive procedures today.

My gosh, Fran! I reread your post and was amazed at how many scars you have. And I thought I had a lot of stitches. So sorry you have had it so rough, especially your deliveries and your appendix.

Man I am so glad that nurse noticed my blood sugar the morning of my fusion surgery resulting in it being cancelled. I had not read this thread until this last week, dont know why but glad I finally got around to it. I am sending my MRI reports to LSI and Bonati next week and the insurance company states if they say I am a viable candidate for the procedure then chances are it will be covered. Thank God for adult onset diabetes or I would have been fused as of 9/19. Even the insurance lady I talked to said it cost them less in the long term for laser surgery as opposed to the cost of fusion, but said it had to be approved on a case by case basis because it is listed as experimental.

Funny Fran and her comments.

"As for the no bending, twisting, turning, stooping with a fusion. Those where my orders for just a laminotomy as well. I looked at the doc and said, "How the heck am I supposed to wipe my rear on the toilet. I'm very short and very short arms. I couldn't do that when I was little without twisting some?"

Fran, I knew it by your forum name that you were not tall. I think in one post I even asked you how tall you were. But after I read the above in your last post, it took me about five minutes of laying on the floor and laughing before I could begin this post.
Let me say, you are me or if it sounds better, I am you with an added 10 years.

I was on the throne one morning and the very same thought came to me. "How can I not bend or twist?" My engineer hubby had problems helping me put on a bra post shoulder surgery with a pain pack still inserted into the shoulder joint. I thought as I sat there in pristine bemusement, "this one is going to put him over the edge". He didn't even want to change diapers when the kids were little. You know, there ought to be courses given to people who are considering marriage as to just what "in sickness and in health" means!!!

BTW, I sent you a pm with an answer to what you asked.
And everything you said about reading on line is true, true, true.

Marie B.

I just lost my post again . . .
and it wasn't even very long. I honestly can't stand this. It is soooo frustrating to spend precious time responding and poof, it's gone. I'm sorry guys for venting . . .
You all have such good things to say. Tthanks MB for thinking of me. I'm able to sit much better than I can walk. And yes, school start up is always crazy. I teach two college courses after my regular school day. So things are hectic to say the least. Something has to give and unfortunately it's been my posting, (many times, not by my choice!)

Thanks Fran for your thorough, detailed response to all our questions!! Unfortunately, when I realized I was experiencing "drop foot" when I couldn't walk across a room on my tip toes without my right heel "dropping" to the floor. Needless to say I was shocked and quite concerned. Does it ever get better after surgery? Has anyone ever regained this ability? I'm not going to join a circus or anything, but why is knowing I can't walk on my tip toes, so darn important . . .??? It's not like this gal ever "tiptoed through life!"

Anyhow, enjoying the laminectomy vs. laminotomy discussion. I really think it is just a matter of time before everyone with back problems faces the inevitable "fusion" to get by. So, if getting more opinions helps to make the decision, then go for it. But if they are all pointing you in this direction and I remember reading, you will know when the time is right to do this, then do it. I think we are all faced with how long before irreversible nerve damage? How do we arrive at our own individual decisions??? We can have identical diagnoses and still have different outcomes. Too many variables to even consider. Hope and a prayer, lots of research and questions, till we run out of both.

In situ means in place . . . it seems that your doctor is considering the possibilities of handling the fusion at that time. Bone graft or cadaver? (sp?) with instrumentation or w/o? It seems like you have a thorough, considerate doctor who is weighing the options along with you. If you haven't run out of questions yet, give yourself permission to keep asking them, till you do. And thank you for sharing them with us in the process. You could be a journalist, it was like being there with you!!! Good job.

Most people choose their doctors because of proximity to where they live and follow up care. That is a smart reason, in and of itself.

Regardless of the type of surgery, PT is important. Strengthening our core muscles is not only popular right now, but essential. MB, I think you're on the right track and we will "back" you 100%

Take care.
C

I just re-read my response and felt like a gerbil on a treadmill . . . trying to be sooo succinct and quick in my reply for fear of timing out! Whew! apparently I made it. Have a great week everyone. Will check in with you soon.
C

Hello Fran and Marie, and All

This thread is moving SOOooo fast I can't even keep up. What did catch my eye as I glanced through the posts was about Online Information.

I would like to temper what your doctor said about online information. Oh yes, one must be careful and consider the source of the information. ANY source in my opinion. That includes doctors, and everyone else.

Be very careful in just throwing away every bit of information you have obtained online. THERE is GOOD information along with the bad.

Just thnk back to the days before the internet. How much knowledge did you have then? How much information could you put your hands on? VERY LITTLE!!!! We have all come a long long way BECAUSE of the internet. Is there misinformation? Sure, without a doubt. Is there misinformation in the newpaper? You bet. Is there misinformation coming from the White House? You know there is. Is there misinformation in the scientific literature? I know there is because I have reviewed many a manuscript. And the list goes on and on. Life is not simply. It does take reseasch and a lot of it to VERIFY one piece of information against another.

It is not my intent to cause you confusion or alarm. It is my intent for you to not just threw online information out the door because one medical professional said to do so.

I could have slugged my spine surgeon when I made some reference to knowledge I had obtained about whatever I don't even remember. His response - "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing" As if to say I should just believe what he says. As if I should go around with blinders on. One must be careful not to draw conclusions with a "little knowledge", however, TRYING to become knowledgable is far FAR better than blindly accepting what one person says. Many doctors have this "know it all" attitude". Some as we have learned on this thread can be very closed mind. Closed minded about laser surgery as one example. And some doctors don't even keep up with the advances in medicine.

Bottom line - Always question what you hear or read. RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH!!!! And VERIFY, VERIFY, VERIFY!!!!

Food for thought.

RichT

Good Advice Rich. You too, Carol.

Another thing I was wondering. Do you find as you go through this very difficult spine problem that there are times, when it leaves you in peace for a short period of time?

I have been dealing with this pain in my low back, buttocks and thighs for a year this August. I've been through every conservative type treatment one can have. After the no relief from steroid injections and the need to take 4 Advils and 1 Ultracet daily at one dose in the morning, I could get through the day comfortably. I could never spread the meds over the day. I had to hit it the minute I got up in the morning. If I didn't whack the pain, it would work itself into such a lather that my knees would come so close to buckling from the pain. And it was a weird type of pain. It would start with a pressure pain exhibiting itself by making me fell like I was being squeezed to death in my behind and legs. But sometimes it would be more on my left side and then that side would stop hurting and my right side would begin and the worse pain would come when everything in the center of my low back felt that squeezing pressure pain that would make me run to my chair. I spent a lot of time in my recliner in the beginning. Because I would have to take breaks from the pills because my stomach would say "enough already." Then it would be back to the recliner.
Once the injections began, my PM wanted me to see how long I could go with out taking pills just to see what the injections were accomplishing. I would have days at a time when I would not take any of the Advil and Ultracet and I might feel pretty good, but I always had an Ultracet in my pocket just in case one of those screaming pain episode would begin. Although I would stay away from the pills, that did not mean I would not have some level of pain. My PM always was convinced that my problem with pain was really from the facet degeneration.

A whole year I would take those Advils and Ultracets even with the injections on the days when I knew I would have a 5 pain level. It wasn't until July that I began to face the fact that surgery on the spine might be in my future. That's when I found the Old Forum, closed, but still on line. That's when I chased down Rich. And then he advised me on this Forum.

This was when I began deciding that surgery was in my future. My PM stil thought that there was still a chance that surgery might not be needed.
I was after my last injection in June that I had a really painful episode that I said to myself, "Self, see a surgeon." And my PCP arranged it. I waited an entire month for that appointment which put me in the month of August, late August. That visit ended with me in shock and daze at his conclusions and a perscription for an anti-convulslant in my hand ended that visit. Four days later at my appointment with my PM, that perscription was nixed by my PM. It was August 31.

He then gave me a perscription for Celebrex and one for Lyrica. The reason he gave me the Rx for Celebrex was my thoughts about how anti inflammatories helped more then a pain pill taken alone. The instructions were to take the Celebrex 1 200 mg in AM and 1 200mg in the PM. But he also gave me a lot of flexibility. Try 2 in the morning or 2 in the evening and see how they work with you. I was instructed not to go over 400 mg per day. Then I was instructed that if they did not work I was to go directly to the Lyrica. (I was reluctant about the Lyrica because I remembered Carol saying it made her "fuzzy." I get fuzzy too very easily by certain meds.)

I told the Forum that I found myself as I was trying to juggle the Celebrex to be taking 600 mg a day because I was still experiencing pain when I would keep it at 400mg. And I didn't want to go on Lyrica. A funny thing happened the week I took the 600 mg. I got warnings from Fran and everyone was concerned about taking Celebrex. But I have to admit for an entire week I took 600mg with no one aware other then people on the Forum. I struggled to reduce the Celebrex to 400 mg per day and I succeeded. For one week, I took 400 mg daily and I did really good and I wasn't sleepy and I didn't spend a lot of time in the recliner.
It was then time for me to go to my second surgeon's appointment. And I was told to take no meds prior to the visit. So I didn't. I was very uncertain about going for so long without anything so I put my 2 Celebrex in my pocket ready to take after the evaluation by the surgeon was over.

I have to tell you that I have never had some of the symptoms that some of you report on. For instance, my pulses are very strong in my feet. I have excellent reflexes on exam. There is no numbness nor tingling anywhere and these symptoms have never occurred during this entire year of pain battle.

So I took no Celebrex for a period of 24 hours. All I had was a minor shock or two. And I handled it pretty well with no meds. But I did go back to the 400 mg. the next day, not because I experience pain, but because I had a lot to do and I didn't want pain to interfere with my day.

For the last two days, I have dropped my dose of Celebrex down to 1 200 mg. capsules. For two days I would just feel achiness in my low back, buttocks and thighs but at a 1 or 2 level. I was amazed. I haven't taken an Ultracet since August 31.

Already I am wondering, knowing all that my MRI shows, could one continue on 1 Celebrex 200 mg. tablet, have no pain and maybe not have to have surgery. I may be too early in thinking this, but Rich is still postponing surgery, so is Carol and I am wondering if this Celebrex pill will keep me away from surgery for another year.

I know "if wishes were horses, beggars would ride," but is this a possibility.
Is it more important to stay away from surgery if one pill keeps you from pain? What is best? Do a pill a day and avoid surgery for awhile and see what happens. Is this a good option? I have to monitor what is happening to me. Do I continue to buy myself time before what may be the inevitable. Decisions, decisions, decisions.

I see my PM on November 9....that's a long way away. Anything could happen by then. But if this Celebrex does good, it would go a long way in proving that my PM is right. Even though I have lots of issues in my spine, for the present, it is the bi- lateral degenerated facets that are causing my pain.
So we continue the monitoring of the problem for the present.

I hope my long detailed posts help others in analyzing their pain to aid in decision making.

Marie B.

Carol, That's a good question. I don't know anybody who has not had one spine operation that still didn't have some kind of pain afterwards.
We only get to talk to people who are in the doctor's offices. Some are there for their second, third or fourth spine surgeries. Doesn't sound good does it?

The only way I can even think to begin to ask if people get better is to walk with a sign on a stick that asks, Did you get better after one spinal surgery?
And people would think I had lost it. I don't know how you can get the real story about post op recoveries.

One man that my husband knows had two spinal surgering during the 90's. He then bought a Select Comfort bed. I don't know which series. They go from the 5000 series to the 9000 series. He did say he had pain after his second surgery and to this day he is convinced his Select Comfor cured his pain. He hasn't had a problem with his back for over 10 years.
But you can't ask him what he had done because most people haven't the foggies idea of what all was wrong with them in the beginning. The first thing out of their mouths is "slipped disc." No real information there.

So we will never have accurate information on who was cured. In fact what makes me upset about most of the testimonials on the laser web sites is that they never say what was wrong with them in the first place in getting laser surgery other then "I had laser Lumbar surgery." What does that tell you......nothing.

We remain in the dark. Except for Joebob and Carrianne. And speaking of Carrianne. We haven't heard how she is doing lately.

Marie B.

Hey soldier boy from the Lone Star State.

I love your little white mouse brushing his teeth with the hair brush. He is adorable. Out here in the cornfields of Ohio, we have all colors of little mice but none have I caught brushing their teeth.

I have a friend who just retired from the special forces. He was a helicoptor pilot and was in Afghanistan. He had a a massive number of compressed discs in his spine. They had to go in through the abdomen to get to the areas to decompress the discs and shore up fractured vertebrae.
He said he had more trouble healing from the surgical entry from the front then he had spine pain. He seems to be doing well now, Doesn't talk much about pain. His only interest now is taking care of his 6 kids. Wonderful family.

He had a very real religious experience that he doesn't talk much about to people other then his very closest friends. A wonderful young man. He was a Marine and when he uses the words "semper fi" he gives a much deeper meaning to the words. We love our soldier boys. I particularly love my son-in-law, another soldier boy. For me, its nothing but the best for our soldier boys.

Marie B.

Hello Marie,

I read every word of your post. I was absorbed into reading each word. My heart and prayers go out to you in the pain that you have and are suffering.

Marie, I'm very glad that Celebrex has and is helping you. When I was first trying to find the right antiinflamitory (sp?) for myself I remember talking with a fellow at the pharmacy. He said that for him Celebrex was the only one that helped him. I could almost feel his sense of relief. I know that if I go for a couple of days without Voltaren (because of a needed test) my body definitely knows it. The joints in my fingers become inflamed, hurt, and my fingers don't open and close easily. It is then I realize/remember how important Voltaren is for me. I couldn't function without it.

"Do you find as you go through this very difficult spine problem that there are times, when it leaves you in peace for a short period of time?" - Very definitely YES!!!! High atmospheric pressure like today and yesterday and I almost feel good as new. It is then I can really enjoy working in our gardens. Like planting a seven foot Japanese maple tree yesterday, a 5 foot 'Sky Pencil' holly and pansies today. On those low atmospheric pressure days it is more time in the recliner. On the bad days I try to remember that there will be better days ahead.

Marie, I'm glad you found the old forum, and now are a part of this great family of friends on this thread.

Regarding Lycrica - I tried it for a few days, got bad side effects and stopped taking it. Pain meds like hydrocodone mess me up more than they help.

"Is it more important to stay away from surgery if one pill keeps you from pain? What is best? Do a pill a day and avoid surgery for awhile and see what happens. Is this a good option? I have to monitor what is happening to me. Do I continue to buy myself time before what may be the inevitable. Decisions, decisions, decisions." - Marie, some important questions and thoughts. I take a number of different pills to keep this ole body going, and I'll continue to do so. Amoung them is Voltaren. Yes, you, Carol, I and others are at that point of "monitoring" our bodies to determine what the next step should be. I remember Dr W's advice "No need for surgery until you can't walk across a room." And my PM doc's advice "stay away from the knife as long as you can." Far better than my spine surgeon's "You need to have spine surgery within the next 6 months." It is a delicate line we walk, not knowing the path to take. I'm with Carol in letting God guide me along this path.

For me at this point, if one pill keeps the knife away I'll stay with the pill. If an epidural keeps the inflamation to the area around a pinched nerve down so I don't have pain in my leg and/or tingling in my leg, then I'll stay with the epidural.

Now to that all important question - "Does anybody get better after surgery?" Some like Joe do, at least for a time. Joe put things very well in one of his posts. He is thankful that his surgery at Bonati was successful and he is back enjoying life. However, he also realizes and understands that other parts of his back may cause him difficulty in the future and thus he may need additional surgery. Marie, with the complexity of the spine, I don't believe one can ever say "cured" with spinal surgery, just hopefully helping to give us time to enjoy life.

Well, its 1:30 am and time to hit the sack (air mattress).

Take care.

RichT

P.S. - Thank goodness for two monitors, sure makes posting easier.

Hey, Fran. Lee @ Admin here...we're working on expanding our portfolio of smilies. If you have some you'd like to recommend, you can either PM me with the URL for the source location, or email me at: administration@ehealthforum.com. Perhaps there are a few smilies that are related to directly to back conditions that would be perfect. So, just let me know.

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I've communicated the time-out issue to our developers, and have scheduled a meeting with them this week. I'll let you know what's going on via this post.


Best,
Lee

Hi everyone. Sorry I've been a little absent lately. I'm keeping up with the reading, but don't have a lot of experience with the latest topics so can't offer anything to the table.

My mom left this morning to head back to New York and I think I'll be going back to work next Monday, maybe do half-days for a couple weeks before I jump back into full time.

I still have some pains in my back (mostly stiffness) and legs (off and on). I decided not to jump the gun and go in for more surgery just yet. I want to listen to my body and just give it more time. If I'm not 100% by next year I'll rethink the plan.

Because they can only do one disc and one side of the disc at a time, I could need a total of 4 surgeries. I have 2 affected discs and symptoms in both sides.

Sooo...I'll pray for patience because I'm not usually good at that!!

I hope you're all doing well and I'll continue to pray for everyone here. You are all an inspiration to me. The amount of pain we're all in and yet we stay so strong (even when we don't think we are)! Thank you for encouraging me!

God bless,
Carrianne

Carriane, Is the reason Bonati can do only one disc at a time because you have disc problems on two different levels and the levels are not right next to each other. Or are you saying the vertebrae are next to each other, such as the L5 and S1, but the herniations are on either side (left on one and right on one) of each of the vertebraes, so you are required to have more surgery then expected.

I was puzzled when you said they can only do a disc, one side at a time.

I understood with microsurgery as the laser centers procedures are, they can do two levels at a time, eg. L4 and L5. In your post, are you saying one of your discs are on the right for one lumbar verterbrae and there is one on the left on another Lumbar vertebrae? I am reiterating this because it can be easy to get the wrong concept to what you are saying.

With your two surgeries behind you, just what did they actually fix for you?

I think this is important for spinal posters to understand because if the surgical procedures mount up in number, so will costs. This may also be why many spine doctors are negative to endoscopic surgery. Therefore they will do an open back surgery to take care of all of the problems at once.

If a person doesn't have full understanding of what is involved, it is easy to become confused during the stressful decision making that a person is required to make. And to do it while in pain makes it even more difficult.

It is these uncertainties that are behind so many of us going to multiple doctors. You never know what you are going to learn that is new about your spine problem. All the reading in the world will not answer questions. Even all doctors are not good at explaining everything to a patient. And when we talk to each other, we all have different concepts as to what is going on. Worse. we could have the identical problem, same level vertebrae, same sided disc, same symptoms and because we are different have very different outcomes to surgery.

My spine specialist said to me that before a surgeon actually enters the back for the spine surgery, with all of the MRI Reports, X-Rays etc. he is still making an "educated guess" of what he can do for me, the patient. Therefore when a doctor tells you what he believes needs to be done, once he is at the visible site of the problem, the educated guess may have to give way to reality as to what is before him.

This is not to put down the "educated guess". The educated guess is most appropriate. That's why we count so much on the surgeons' knowledge and experience plus his God given capabilities. The doctor just can not say 100% that is all there is until he views with his own eyes the cause of the pain. Post Op, the surgeon is forced to wait until he sees if he has accomplished the goal both he and the patient are looking for. Freedom from pain for the patient.

I think your situation gives prudent thought to a person determining with the right doctor if or if not they are a candidate for micro surgery. And then if the doctor says the patient is a candidate, then the patient has to understand what devils can hide in the details. It's like being behind the 8 ball.

Never the less, I hope you are more free of pain now then when you approached your first surgical operation. It is a good decision for you that you have made in taking a year off before you enter into another surgical spine procedure.

We think of you all of the time and pray for your wellness.

Marie B.

Thanks for letting me know about this site RichT. I have been reading the posts for 2 days now.....whew! I am up to page 14 and counting. Lots and lots of interesting, valuable info, especially re Laser Surgery. Nice to read how well JoeBob is doing. I wondered how he was getting along because I never see any of his posts on Spine-Health anymore