Back again Fran,

That is quite a system you have to post on ehealth. We sure shouldn't have to go through this pain like we do. I'm amazed people put up with it.

By the way, how did you send an E-mail to the admin? For some reason my mind isn't clicking right tonight. So what's new? LOL

RichT

Hi there RichT.......Thank you. How have you been doing? I'm glad you have not experienced any of those symptoms either........they are terrible.

I'm still searching for a flight......I keep wondering if they may get cheaper??? ....oooorrrrrrrrrrr..........maybe not!!! It's always a roll of the dice....Huh?? Take care to.........mj

Hello Joe,

And you amaze me again!!! Bonati has given you back your life. Do enjoy being an ice hockey coach. But, do be careful. Your body and mind are telling you you are good as new, however, it does take the body time to really heal.

ENJOY your life as I know you are. Thanks for stopping by now and then and the encouragement and help you are giving.

RichT

Hello BlueDragonfly,

AHHHHHhhh, so nice to see your post.

Sorry to read about your bad back pains. Glad you found a good chiro.

OUCH!!! That was terrible that you could not sit on something that was comfortable to you. I'll bet you were ready to slug the judge. Hard benches are a NO NO for me too. In fact even an uncomfortable cushioned chair will take care of my back. I recently bought a Temperpedic seat cushion that I take to resturants and wherever I go. REALLY helps me.

It is unbelievable what Chiu and his group did. That should be on the front page of the newspaper.

Please do stay in touch. I really appreciate your sharing. It will help all of us in our decisions.

Hope you get a good night's rest.

RichT

I sent you a message. My wife really liked the place.Very clean and comfortable.I was not concerned with saving a buck,I wanted to be some
place nice for 3 weeks.We are thinking of renting there again when we go back again to see many of the sites we missed and enjoy some time in
the sun with our kids.

Joe

Rich,

Hey, it's the life of us spineys, dealing with pain, discomfort etc. all the time. We shouldn't be surprised that we have this pain in the you know what, in posting.

Oh, by the way, isn't the pressure gradient changes fun? Trust me, I can give you a better weather forcast than any weather person going. And it isn't fun.

discomfort is now pain for me, as this horrible heat and humidity is moving in for a one day final stand. Low to mid 90's and 65-70 degree dew point to join it. Didn't anyone tell mother nature that it's fall in New England now, not mid August? the dog days of summer are supposed to be over.
Course any time the weather changes one part of my body or the other talks to me.
Just as long as I don't feel the old appendectomy scar start to double me over in pain. that ones is from 1969.
the one time it doubled me over instead of just hurt was Feb 6-7, 1978. Yup the blizzard of 1978. Gees, I was 7 months pregnant with my son then too.
That one gets me with snowstorm coming, just never as bad as that time.

OK so how did I get the e-mail through.

I went to the home page for ehealthforum and went to the bottom of the page where it says contact us. clicked there and the page came up to contact them. I filled in all the info, made sure the subject was technical, then filled in the problem and clicked send. It went right through.
Problem is the info got to them and they read it, then it just seems to have vanished cause they haven't done anything about it.

The last long post I posted, I did they way I posted about, but also tried to see if it would go through, of course I was timed out.

They need to get this fixed. it's crazy.

So glad that referral worked out for you.

Fran

MJ, Have a safe flight and May God Be with You from your Departure, your Stay and your Return.

Marie B

Hi Everybody!
I've put all of my spiney books on the bookshelf. Hey! Who needs books when we got Fran to fill in the blanks. Fran, don't go away and don't stop letting us know how your spine surgery has or is affecting the rest of your body. I've come to believe that once the spine sneezes; all bones, muscles and nerves echo the sneeze and they makd sure we know about it.

Joebob, thankyou, I got your message. Then I read the post on the Forum and it clarified which condo your wife liked. Thanks.

Bless you Rich T. You responded to my distress call and now I have a place to share my pain, suffering and fears with people who understand.

Blue Dragonfly, I read of all of your sufferings from the California place on the Old Forum and am glad to see you are posting on this Forum. You are certainly carrying a lot of crosses. Hope you are given the opportunity to be relieved of them soon.

Now for my spiney twin, Carol, who wears the yellow rose of Texas, she must be having some pain relief to continue with her studies. Where are you Carol?

Now while everyone is having trouble with getting their posts off, I keep looking at the Emoticons and have no idea how to put them on a post.
I've tried dragging. I've tried right clicking and nothing.
I particularly liked all of the darling smiley faces that you all used to use on the old Forum; particularly the clicking beer glasses. It certainly expressed the feelings of all who used them. Maybe I should go look under "help" on the tool box.

Marie B.

Marie,

I'm trying to see if this works for the smileys. not sure if it will.

Fran

marie, I don't know about the fancy smileys but do with the ones listed on this forum.

To use those you do the following.

Go to the bottom of the page and click on post a reply. don't use the quick response.

Once on the post a reply you will see the smileys and where it says "view more emotions.

Where ever you want one of them to appear in your message just click on one of the smiley pics. It will show up in your message as a bunch of numbers, letters, punctution and/or a combo of any and all of them. When you either preview the message first or just click submit, the smileys will show up in the message.

Now if someone can tell us how to get all the real fancy ones, I'd love those too, but there is a message under the help on this forum that too many smileys in a post are not allowed or something to that affect and they delete them. If you click preview, you can be sure that you have the smileys in the right place, used the ones you wanted or make changes. Just scroll down the page a bit.

Fran

Marie said "Hi Everybody!
I've put all of my spiney books on the bookshelf. Hey! Who needs books when we got Fran to fill in the blanks. Fran, don't go away and don't stop letting us know how your spine surgery has or is affecting the rest of your body. I've come to believe that once the spine sneezes; all bones, muscles and nerves echo the sneeze and they makd sure we know about it. "

Marie, don't put those books away, I really don't know as much as you think I do. Just had enough nursing school, science classes and a daughter that just about has her masters in Biology as well as minor in anatomy and physiology and genetics and microbiology.
When in doupt I pick her brain and make her looke things up to.

One advantage I do have though, is a thourogh understanding of the medical terminology and that always helps to understand a doc.

As for one thing connected to the other. It makes perfect sense when you think about it.
From head to toe, all our bones, muscles, tendons, ligaments are all connected to one another, with the nerves and joints thrown in there too.
All it takes is to knock one thing out of align and it starts to throw off everything. Depending on what is knocked off, the severity and for how long and presto, we are causing a problem of some kind somewhere else in the body.

A simple example is my 20 year old son. When he was 15, he shattered his ankle in a basketball game; badly enough that it needed to be totally reconstructed. He was on crutches for 10 weeks before the cast came off and he started intensive PT that lasted for 5 months before he could fully walk again.
By the time the cast came off, the poor kid was sore in every muscle in his body, arms, hands, wrists, shoulder, neck, back, and his left leg from thigh to toes was twice the size as the other one.
Part of that was from the atrophy of the right leg not being used for so long and the left leg muscles enlarged from extra use.

All that soreness was from using muscles that you normally wouldn't use the way he was using them, but had no choice.

He never thought the aches and pains would go away, but as soon as he had had enough PT to begin to put some weight on his right leg, the soreness in the other muscles started to go away. Took about 2 months for them all to go.

So if we have a spinal problem of some kind we end up using muscles abnormally to compensate for what we can't do with the spine. Many times it happens and we are unaware of the underlying problem until we are finally doubled over in pain.

In my case in particular, my spinal doc told me that the first indication of a spinal problem was the plantar facsaitits I had in 2001-2002, even though there was no evidence of my not standing correctly or anything else.
I got that healed and started using sports orthotics and good shoes.
That corrected the way I was standing but it through my spine off more and I began to stand a bit off, but not enough for anyone to notice. That slight bit off was enough to create a problem when I shoveled snow and caused tennis elbow in my right arm, the right because I am right handed and put more strength in the right arm than the left.
The arm was not treated correctly or diagnosed correctly. I had surgery on it that made things worse with the arm, unable to use it for a long time. My physical activity declined to almost nothing because I couldn't go anywhere, drive, and had difficulty walking because I couldn't swing my arms and it hurt horribly to walk much.
The lack of movement and walking set in motion a slow spiral of symptoms of spinal stenosis and loss of core muscle strength. Without that muscle strength to help support the spine, all the symptoms of the stenosis finally just hit me all at once.

Ironically the second opinion ortho for my arms, that is part of the practice with my spine doc, wondered if a spine problem was going on, right from the beginning, but wanted to get the arms under control before we moved in that direction, since I had no real spinal symptoms.

By the time I was going to schedule the MRI to be safe, I couldn't get out of bed because of the pain from the stenosis. It literally hit me out of no where. Went to bed one night fine and couldn't get up the next morning.

I am also a perfect example of the reverse happening as well. Fix the spine problem and it leads to another one. the feet where very happy the way they where before the surgery, not so afterwards. Had to take care of that problem as well.

OK time to make some dinner.

Fran

Before your instructions, when I would click on a smiley, I would see all of the numbers and think I was doing something wrong.

I will give it a try. Odd that they would put the emoticons and then expect you to not use them.

Marie B.

Helloi Guy,

Guy, you provided excellent thoughts and wisdom in your post. Much appreciate. Good food for thought.

You are correct, waiting too long can be harmfull. That is why my spine surgeon does not want me to wait more than six months for my surgery. His concern is that I may risk the use of my legs because of nerve damage.

"of course, that is if your situation warrants surgery." Very true, and that is the million dollar question. My PM doc, my surgeon's own PA, Dr. Wiesel and another spine surgeon have all said to 'WAIT", that surgery is not warranted at this time.

Before the epidural I had pain in my right butt, and upper right leg. I had a tingling sensation in my lower right leg. No foot drop as you had. Oh yes, very litttle response to that "little rubber hammer" on my right knee.

Since the epidural in April no pain in the butt (just what others cause me LOL), tingling sensation is gone as is the pain in my right leg. AND what makes me feel better is that the response of my leg to that rubber hammer is better.

Yep, still have some of the lower back pain, can't stand in one place, and can't sit in uncomfortable chairs. Even my spine surgeon told me that I may still have some pain even with successful surgery.

I'm looking forward to having dinner with my PM doc. A way to thank him for what he has done for me, and a time to discuss "me" and the future "off the record".

You know I'm a gardener. That means lifting a bit of weight now and then. When Joe said that his doctor recommended he not lift more than 35 lbs at one time after his surgery, and someone else said they should only lift 10 lbs max after surgery, I went OUCH!!!!! For me, 100 lbs is pushing it a bit now, but 75 is not unusual.

Time will tell the path to take. AND everyone's experiences and thoughts will help me to make the right decision at the right time. Your posts are INVALUABLE to me.

Again Guy, thanks for your caution about waiting too long. Spines are a roll of the dice.

RichT

Hello Fran,

Yep, I did as you did in trying to send a message to the admin. No response. This morning I sent an E-mail to the CEO, Mr. Lurie and told him about the posting difficulty we are having and asked for his assistance. WOW was I pleasantly surprised when I received a very timely and positive E-mail from him. Overcoming software problems can take time, so we need to be patient.

Take care.

RichT

Well, it was a long day everyone. I met a new spinal surgeon. Left the house at 8AM after rising at 6AM. Hubby and I had over an hour and a half to head to north east Ohio big city. This hospital is too big. Ever aspect of the body, Eye, Ear, Cancer, Spine, Ortho, Cardiac, what ever could possibly be wrong with the body, there is a huge building for each place with each its own parking lots. They even have shuttles to run people from building to building to building.

It's so big the computer paper work is an immense drag on communications and the left hand frequently doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
The doctors are absolutely fabulous in their capabilities, but Heavens, someone has got to change their Financial and appointment departments. The people behind the counters are terribly nice. I had a 10 AM appointment. I was placed before a touch screen computer and I spent at least 20 minutes answering all of the questions on the computer. Then I was given a 5 page booklet with questions on both sides that I had to fill out. I should have gotten there at 9AM just to fill out all that was asked about me, my histoy, my problem and my life. My appointment with the doctor was for 10:30 AM. I was put in a room at 11:15AM. A nurse with a very lovely personality who identified herself as my doctor's nurse got behind another computer and asked me the very same questions I had just completed in the Great Hall of the Body of Wounded. Then a young, handsome doctor walked into the room. He was Romanian, he said, but has always lived in the US. He was there on Fellowship. Wonderfully pleasant kind, courteous and questioning during an examination. Then he took out a paper and began asking the very same questions that I had just answered for the lovely nurse and in the Great Hall of the Body of Wounded. Then it was 12 Noon and finally the Dr. who I had been waiting to see entered my room.

For two hours we talked, I questioned, and he demonstrated every aspect of surgery he would do. Then he went out the door to bring in more models of the spine and gave me even a better concept of what he thought was best to do. He was wonderful, concerned and caring and he didn't want me to choose that hospital for the surgery but another one that he functioned in because he didn't want me to get lost in the great crowd of humans who had spine surgery by many doctors...300 surgeries per day at the center in which I was sitting.

The recommendations were Minimally Invasive surgery with Lamenectomy at the L4,L5 Level and because of the very little amount of slippage, he also suggested that he could go without fusion but he would feel more secure if he could do Fusion Insitu. Surgical Incision would be a little over an inch. Under anesthesia for about one and one half hour.
If I would prefer a spinal anesthesia that could be arranged to avoid anesthesia. And no, it would not interfere with the surgical area.

A Lamenectomy....do you know what they do with a lamenectomy to get to the stenoses?...my stenosis is rather wide based. They take off the bone that you can feel at your back and they don't put it back on!!!! He called it "taking off the roof" of the vertebrae. But they do that to get to the stenosis, the buckling ligamentum and the osteophytes on the degenerated facet joints.
He did not choose a laminotomy because they do that just for discs. You can't have the other stuff present...just a disc that has either bulged or herniated into the spinal canal. That's when they do a laminotomy.
He said they would do a bone fusion with insitu...that's making the bone of the vertebrae like a very tiny washboard that aides in preventing further slippage. And they are very careful not to touch the membranes of the nerves of the spine. He expected the results to be very successful and was sure that I would have no back pain, no buttock pain and no upper thigh pain post op. He did not promise "no future problems in the back" because, he said we all are going down that road of aging and some are luckier then others that they remain pain free even though they too may have stenosis, even some slippage but it is without pain and the person is oblivious to the spine problem because of the lack of pain.

I'm still trying to figure out how a person can go with a hole in their back after they take that roof off.
I also want to make sure that you know, I am explaining this as a completely ignorant,inexperienced spine problems person.

When I got home I went to the laser sites and that basically was what I read in regard to stenosis treatment except they must use laser on the lamina to take the roof off. They don't give much more description. And since they do a laminectomy for spondy, I guess the laminectomy might handle all of my problems at the laser institute. I'm just speculating here. I still have to forward them may material for them to determine the details of my MRI.

What I liked about the doctor today. He choose to scan through the MRI Report and studied all of my CD films of my MRI and X-Ray of spine.
He very much chose to make his own determination of my problem. My husband, coming from a metallurgical background, saw this action and thought with high regard of the doctor. Hubby said, anyone who would proceed with any special project that required certain specifications would never depend on another person's read of microscopic examinations. The real hands on surgeon should know as much if not more then the radiologist about what is wrong and what he is going to do to improve the patient's problematic situation.

We drove back home another hour and a half, had dinner out. Got home at 4:30 PM. It was a long and exhausting day with having taken no celebrex so the doctor could judge my pain level. I curled up in my recliner with my blankie and slept from exhaustion for 2 hours.

Hope this is a good description for anyone facing stenosis surgery

Marie B.

Hello Marie,

As I read through your wonderful post in which you shared your day, I felt I was almost there myself. You have a wonderful way of "painting" your day with words. Thnaks!!!

SOOOoooo very glad you had a fine surgeon who took the time to really communicate with you. TWO HOURS - that's amazing. No way have I had any doctor spend two hours talking with me and explaining things. You are most fortunate. Very good that your husband, a metallurgist, had a good feeling about the surgeon from his point of view.

Sleep well tonight.

RichT

Rich I'm still trying to figure out between what I was told by the surgeon, and compare with the language that is used at Jobob's laser center in regard to stenosis. Hudson speaks of Laminectomy too. And yet at the other Tampa place we all look at, there they continue to say they use Laminotomy or Percutaneous decompression of the disc. I'm still not sure, if a laminotomy which is the partial removal of the lamina is enough for a wide based buldging disc canbe taken care of with minimal access to the disc. I hate the thought of a Laminectomy. It's as bad as fusions and screws.

What language is used by your surgeons for stenosis?

And I really am afraid of fusion no matter how it is presented with or without instrumentation. Do you think the same way in your own regard?

I can also tell you that my PM keeps saying that he works to relieve my pain, but he always takes this position by saying "I'm not the surgeon. The surgeon can advise you about your need for surgery better then I." Symptoms do not have to be severe for the surgeon to see that there really is a need to remove the stenosis.

I understand that, but when I read the laser websites, they really are not too descriptive about their procedures, especially Hudson. So I am still studying the problem. And I don't think I should wait too much longer to get that stenosis removed.

I will sleep well tonight. Thankyou. Take care of yourself and quit picking up those 75 pound bushes and or bags.
Marie B.

Marie,

Sounds like you found yourself a really wonderful and caring spinal doc. He actually sounds a lot like my spine doc and that's a good thing.

You did a great job explaining everything that he said, almost felt like I was in the room with you.

Big Hospitals, big mess, one hand doesnt know what the other is doing, and one of my favorite parts is how they lose your ins. info going from one dept. to the other. Even is this day and age of computers, that good old number on the ins. card gets logged in in one location and vanishes when you get to the next one. Like I said, one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.

So, based on the info that you posted, I want to respond to some of what you said and some of your questions.

First of all, all the questions you filled out and answered several times is routine in a good practice and/or large facility. The first one you filled out goes into your medical record. The same questions asked by the nurse are written down by her and also put in your chart, as are the ones that your doctor asked you. You may or may not have noticed that they had the answers to the questions from the prior set you answered.
I asked my spine doc why I had to go through the same questions, first filled out by me and then asked by his PA and then by him. I told him, it seemed to be a waste of time.
The answer just blew me away. "The more times you answer the same questions, the more detail a patient usually adds of remembers more info and he showed my the answers to a couple of questions that I had written the answers and then was asked twice. Each one of them had more info than the prior ones.
My thought was, very thorough docs.

The fact that the doc spent 2 hours with you is really a blessing. Looking at your MRI and all films with his own eyes and not just the readings is really important. From experience, if the doc can't read the MRI, CT or xrays, run away from that doc as fast as you can. If the doc relys on mostly the radiology readings, likewise, run away as fast as you can.

I'm impressed at the various models etc. to explain things to you. I had only one doc do that with me out of all the ones I saw for second opinions. That was my spinal surgeon and he, too, took all the time needed to explain everything to me.

Like the minimally invasive, 1 inch incision as well. That's what I had for stenosis in the same area as you, L4,L5,S1.

As for his wanting to do a laminectomy and prefers to do fusion vs laminotomy or percutaneous decompression. I can only answer from what my best friend asked my doc and she's a nurse.

Simpley put, he said that a laminotomy can be done or a partial laminotomy if there is severe stenosis only in one small section of the vertebrae and it doesn't involve lots of other things in other areas of the spine or the stenosis inovlves the majority of the canal.
If more than just a disc or a small narowing of the canal from the lateral articulate is present, then a laminotomy is necessary and the proper relief can't be done with just a small area of the vertebrae is removed..

My doc also said that if he has to do a laminectomy he also wants to do a fusion because the spine is left unstable and can create big time problems down the road.
I'm impressed with his idea of in situ. If I remember correctly, that gives you far more flexibility afterwards as well, though I could be wrong.

He sounds like he's very confident in the surgery that he talked to you about and believes that it will be good for you. The fact that he cares enough to have you go to a smaller hospital for surgery, so that you don't get lost in the system is really great.
My doc does the same thing. He only uses a big time Boston Hospital if he needs special equipment for the spinals surgery he has to do, which has happened about twice in the past 7 years.

He prefers the smaller hospital as he knows the staff well, nurses on the floor post op, PT people, OR staff and they know him well.
My friend, who is a nurse, was with me the day I had my surgery. She works in a major teaching hospital in a very high pressure, step down unit from ICU, so she is quite familiar with the inside of a hospital and nursing care.
Over a year later, she is still talking about the small hospital, the wonderful, personal care that I got and she saw the other patients get in the short period of time I was there, and the relationship that the staff had with my doc and each other. Real team work, and real caring. Since it isn't as busy a place, they have the time to spend with a patient and do the little things.

I smiled when I read your comments about your husband's thoughts. Sounds like mine. My hubby is an elecrical engineer, very precise, very methodical, takes his time doing things, and has to see things to make his own determinations. He walked out of every doc's office that I saw, except my spinal surgeon, and said, "how can he make a determination with only a glance at the MRIs? Did he really look at them? He spent more time reading the written report than going over the MRI's. I don't like that, he's having someone else make his decisions for him."

I felt the same way as did my friend.

Marie, this doc sounds like a gem and if it where me, I would trust him.

Like that he's not that far away. I know, not around the corner, but if you need him, he's fairly local. He left you to leave and make a decision about what you want to do or not do.

Going to the laser places, involves a lot of money, long distance to get there, far away from home. You meet with them when you are there and have to have a place to stay, another expense and have a decision to make, more on the spot. Go ahead with their recomendations or go home.
If you go home and then decide to go back, more expense.

You have to be the one to make the decisons and they aren't easy. I will admit again, I'm just not sold on the laser places. You know the questions I still have about them.

I'm older, 57, and can be very old fashioned in some ways with medical care. One of those things is having my doctor close by so that if I need him/her, he is available to go and see and not a couple thousand miles away. To me that is a big draw back to Florida.

I could be wrong, and I'll be the first to say it; but it sounds like to me you have found a gem of a doc. They are hard to find.

Fran

Yes, Fran, your friend's explanation of what the doctor said is just the reasons my spinal doctor gave me. He wants to provide the best of pain relief in doing the laminectomy.

Now in regard to taking that bone projection off, the roof, as they call it, I know the membranes are around the nerve, but what I am unsure about is how the heck months post op when the brace is gone is that spot protected from the outside world with no bone coverage? What is then protecting the nerve area in the future especially at the L4 & L5 area. For us women who are more curvey then men in the back location, that is exactly where our little lycra panty girdle hits or any kind of slacks/pants meet the waist. Do not outside forces then put pressure on that nerve when it has no bone protection? ( Hope this question doesn't come out too racey for this Forum)
Maybe I missed something in the doctor's explanation, but I don't think there is way to just lift the roof up while they do the work,and then lower the roof back in place.

So does one go the rest of her life with a "hole" in her back? If that is the case, I have to lose weight to the point where I am at my 18 year old weight level just so I can keep some sort of wide elastic band around me and still be able to wear my clothes. Talk about impossibilities.

Marie B.

Hello Everyone,

Today I received a response (PM and E-mail) from the Admin regarding our posting "difficulties".

Lee apologized for the difficulties we have had.

Regarding the cause of the difficulty, I hope the Admin won't mind my quoting from the communication I received - "When you're logged into EHEALTH, the system notes the length of your session by minutes. Then, for security reasons, the system automatically logs you out after 15 minutes (I believe) if the screen has not changed. This is to prevent someone in your home, office, or the public library from accessing your account should you walk away from the computer. But the auto time out also means that when you're composing a long message that might take 20-30 minutes, you find yourself out of luck b/c you've lost the content."

Regarding resolving the problem, I quote from the communication - "Well... there are 2 resolutions for this problem.

1. We're going to increase the time out session requirements for all text boxes so that you don't experience a "time out". In practical terms, you should be able to spend a good amount of time writing a reply or creating a new post without worry about the auto log-out. How long do you typically need to write a new post?

2. You can manually go "back" to your post if you find that you're logged out. Then, right click to the ehealthforum home page, open this page in a new window, and log in again. Your message should be preserved and you should be able to send it as soon as you're logged in."

Can you help them by telling me how long it generally takes you to write a long post? Thanks

To make the changes may take several days, so try to be patient.

I am most pleased with the prompt response the Admin is giving to our concerns. It takes very special people to want to respond to our concern. I thank them as I know you all do.

RichT