Laser Spine Surgery

Rich T. Last September, I went to a chiropractor. Why did I go? Because chiropractors had been using warm moist heat or ice, ultra sound, and subluxation on me for at least 10 years. I would add Advil to relieve the back pain. I have had back spasms that occurred routinely for most of early adulthood. I can read the history of my married life in my present MRI, from having babies, to cleaning house and working like a big man instead of the 5 ft. tall woman that I am. I blame the height on genetics from southern Europe. I would take 4 Advil and take to my bed with ice packs right after a chiro visit. I would simply be told that the muscles in my back were in spasm and that was the choice of treatment.

Ten years ago, I started to have serious spasms that would last for days at a time. By 2000, one MD put me on 50 mg. of Viox for 5 days before the pain went away. When I went to an Ortho MD, he said I was treating it correctly and never once suggested X-Ray or MRI.

Then because of retirement of my PP, I went to a new PP. Last September after the chiro could do no more, I went to my PP and complained that I had had it up to my eyeballs with this conservative treatment. That's when he ordered me Ultracet and sent me for an MRI.
Nothing here in this area of the cornfields of Ohio can get you anywhere, until 28 days have passed. You are not an emergency with just pain. You have to have had a heart attack or can't breath before the emergency room starts to function. And of course that has to be documented before treatment is initiated. So it was 28 days before the MRI appointment was given.

Post MRI Report, I refused my MD's referral to the Ortho surgeon and chose to go north to the big city's Pain Management Center. It took 28 days before I got the the PM Clinic. That's when I met my PM and spent 5 months with injections. Of course, I could never reach my PM in between my 28 day,monthly, visits for the injection procedures. I don't know why. Even the secretary of his office was off more often then on duty. But when you were in his presence he was wonderfully informative.
It was after 5 injections that I had a major pain episode. I thought my knees were going to buckle from the pain; in fact they did buckle. I just caught myself before I fell to my knees. I called my MD and said, "I can't reach my PM, Can I go see the Ortho surgeon that you
recommended?" Twenty eight days later I was before the Ortho surgeon. He found the spondy by X-ray. He's the one that said Fusion with instrumentation, Partial discectomy and a few other procedures that would be a 6 hour surgery. He ordered me neurontin to go for 60 days until I could decide about the surgery. Three days later my appointment with my Pain M. MD took place. (this was two months post last injection.) I showed him what the surgeon ordered me. He immediately said, "Don't
use that. It is an "old use med." I suggest you take Elyeria, (sp?) I remembered reading that this was one of the meds that Carol had taken and she said it made her "fuzzy". If it made Carol "fuzzy", I knew it would make me "fuzzy." I hate being "fuzzy" headed. That's when I said to him that in the past Celebrex had been very helpful to me post surgery for pain.
He then said "Try Celebrex, but don't go over 400 mg. And he ordered me a supply. When 400 mg. of Celebrex just cut the edge of the pain in my low back, the buttocks and upper thighs, I tried 600 mg. just to see if it would work. I did.
My PM does not yet know that I tried 600 mg for a week just to see how it would work.
Now about Celebrex. Celebrex was never taken off the market as Viox was. A warning came with Celebrex because there was a concern that because of the way it worked on the body, it "might" I repeat, "might" cause similar problems as Viox had caused. But it was never taken off of the market. Not only that, my pill book said that Celebrex could be given 400 mg. 2 times a day and then it listed all of the possible side effects with Celebrex. Celebrex never, I repeat, never, had the detrimental side effects that Viox had. Many doctors used to recommend Celebrex for Arthritis sufferers over Viox simply because of the fewer side effects. In my area, severe sufferers of Arthritis were woeful when Viox was removed from their meds because nothing gave them the relief that Viox had. I never took Celebrex for arthritis, because I was never diagnosed with arthritis. It looks like just my L4, L5 Facet joints might have been affected with arthritis.

So when you asked me about the second opinion doctor, I haven't gone to my 2nd surgeon yet. And I don't see my PM until November.

An anti-inflammatory works on my pain better then a narcotic. But because of the low dosage that is recommended in today's world, I still have pain at about a 4 or 5 level. Up the dosage 200 mg. to 600 mg.and I am down to a 2 level of pain. Not only that, with Celebrex, I never feel "fuzzy" I am alert and wide awake and I don't sit in my recliner most of the day. I love life again. I can't stand being sedentary. I do plan on speaking to my PM about what is effective and what is not. I'm even going to discuss with him the med you, Rich are on since it is an anti-inflammatory.

I will have to answer Carol in another Post.
Marie B

Carol, You are 100% right when you say, " I can't get my mind wrapped around the fact that I have back problems." Me Too! It is funny when you say it that way, but it is the Truth. Last night when I was moaning and groaning to my husband about not being able to go here or go there or do this or do that, he got upset with me and said, "You have to realize that you have back problems and you probably will for the rest of your life." Well, I don't mind having back problems, but why does it have to be the kind that limit my activities. Silly of me, but there it is. My mind just isn't ready to accept it.

I could walk into a surgeon's office and be on the list for back surgery as soon as I walked in....barring the 28 day time period. So why don't I? Fear!!!!
And it is just as you said Carol, you don't want to find yourself in a wheel chair in the future. I don't care how often "The Hover-round Chair" advertises with that little old grey haired lady singing, "You made me love you."; they are not going to convince me that this is a good thing adn I am not going to love it.

Carol, Thankyou for your honesty. When I see your posts, I know I am going to have a good chuckle because there you are, my twin.
Marie B.

Carol, Rich, and others:

From what I have been learning, waiting too long for surgery can be very harmful. I have seen this written up several places, but Chirogeek's website comes to mind. I recall that he suggested trying conservative treatments for 4 months and then start looking toward surgery -- of course, that is if your situation warrants surgery. Waiting too long can cause nerve damage. If you are taking epidurals on a regular basis, and/or have symptoms such as numbness, foot drop, loss of knee-jerk type reactions, you may be having nerve damage.

I was having some foot drop. I could not walk on my heels without my left foot dropping. I was having numbness in the left leg, and my reactions to the little rubber hammer were slight at best. Let's not talk about the sciatic pain! Two surgeons told me to skip the conservative treatment and go directly to surgery before I had more nerve damage.

Just something to give some serious thought.
Guy

Carol, about the steroid injections.
Here they call the injections, Lumbar injections or Transforaminal Injections.
I don't know if Facet Injections are the same. If they are, the term was never used in my presence by the MDs.

My first injection I thought was a miracle. It took 48 hours before it started to work and then I had 10 whole days of absolutely no pain and I flew to California and back and I thought this is great! I get two more of these.
Here they will only give 3 injections of any one type.

Injection 2 kept my pain level down to a 3 or 4 but I still had to take 3 Advil and 1 Ultracet if I wanted to do anything or go anyplace. I didn't want to scream in public so I would swallow the pills.

When I went for my 3rd Injection, I told my PM doctor that this was not removing my pain and he said that was his aim "to not just reduce the pain but make me pain free." He then made a quick decision to go to what he termed a Transforaminal Injection. All I could determing was that the needle was going to be placed at a different angle at the L4, L5 levels and the Transforaminal would be two injections given one right after the other. That time I have about one week with no pain but then it was back to usual.
By the 3rd Transforaminal, my pain level never got lower then a 3 and I still had to take the meds to be able to do anything but complain and sit in my recliner.

My PM has never once suggested for me to have more injections. I think there is a questions about the amount of steroids that can be injected over a long period of time. But I have never researched that out yet.

When you talk about not being able to stand or walk any great distance for any length of time, that was/is me. I need pain relief because I run a farm and that can't be done from a recliner.

I am now on my way to talking to another younger man who I am told has had fusion with instrumentation and I don't know what else. This younger man still has severe pain and he goes for a steroid injection every month just to get minimum relief. I worry that his work might not have been done properly and if I can lean what his original problem was prior to surgery, I may get some idea as to why he is still having pain. I have no problem telling others...."Go get another opinion and for heaven's sake, try someone outside the cornfields of Ohio."

Marie B.

Thanks Guy for the information.
At present, I have no numbness or tingling or any of the symptoms that you have noted in your post....not even muscle spasms of the leg, foot and toes.
That's why my PM doctor does not want me to jump into aggressive surgery at this time. But he also is having me see another surgeon from his hospital spine clinic to back up what he is saying or else expedite my action in the direction of surgery. This is also why I am working so hard to make a decision. To laser or not to laser? To try minimally invasive surgery or not.?
That's why for the present it is talk, talk, talk.

Marie B

Rich, Your comment about ankylosing Spondy made me go search on Spine Universe for a read.

Because of the arthritis inflammatory action on the vertebrae and surrounding tissues, it appears that the bones fuse and that is not a good thing. And yet it is O.K for surgeons to Fuse by what ever means the spine to prevent further spondy. Surgical fusing is a good thing??? I admit, I have not read enough on the subject. But what I have read, "tis a puzzlement."

Marie B.

Hello Carol, Marie, Guy and MJ,

Thanks for sharing and for your thoughts and perspectives. Much food for thought. I would like very much to be able to respond to each of your posts, however at this time permit me to "step back out of the trees to try and see the forest".

We do have similar and yet different spine issues. We are at similar and yet dissimilar points as to what to do.

We are on this teeter-totter. In a way a balancing act. We want to retain and do all the things that we want to do. We know that at least at times this is not possible with our current situation. On the other hand is to hopefully regain through surgery some of the things we cannot do today realizing that surgery in itself will perhaps cause some restrictions.

It seems we all realize that at some point the "teeter-totter" will move from one point being the "high ground" to the other side being the "high ground. We are a THINKING group of people. We don't just blindly follow what someone says. We try very hard to make the best decision possible realizing that much of the "data" is an unknown.

This is when to me at least that I do my research WITH God's guiding hand. To be able to relax and receive His "peace which passes all understanding". To walk with Him in the confidence AND understanding that He will always be there, and that even though things may not go OUR way because of our human frailty , He will always comfort us.

Take care.

RichT

Hey gang
Just had a minute and wanted to say Hi. I am doing great. I am back to
coaching hockey and on my skates twice a week for about 1 1/2 each
time. NO back or leg pain at all, just some mild stiffness in my mid
back but I am no spring chicken anymore and it does not slow me down.
I am still getting at least 1 massage a week and that makes it all better.
Activity of any kind is my new addiction,I can not site still. My highest
recomendation goes to Bonati. They did not cure my bad back.
They repaired what was causing my pain. When the other 2 discs that
are moderatly bulging and have degenerative disc disease cause me
any problems I know where to go to relieve the pain. I know that 1 of
these are going to cause me trouble at some point in my life,but I am
not going to site around and wait for it to happen.I do know where to
go when it does happen.
Hope everyone is having a good weekend.

Joe

Joe, I wanted to let you know that you are very influential in regard to recommending Bonati, at least for me. It is your experience that has kept me from scratching off the idea of Bonati. I keep hoping that is exactly what Bonati would do for me. Find the Cause of the pain and eliminate it. They don't have to fix anyting that is not bothering me. I think that is what Carol was saying when she talked about getting a surgeon to go in and take away the pain. Anything else that happens for the good is a bonus.

I am glad to know that your leg pain is totally gone. This should give Carrianne a lot of hope with the latent post op leg pain. Nerves do heal.
Ice Hockey!!!....hmmm that's as rough a sport as soccer.

Marie B

Hi All,
BlueDragonfly formerly Dragonfly44 on Carol's old thread has been MIA. So time to show up again.
Oh my Gosh! Carianne has gone through quite the ordeal. I truly do hope things calm down with time. Keep bugging them if you don't in a few weeks.
I was out of commision for weeks with a triple whammy - usual bad neck plus thorasic/rib and low back all kicked in with major spasms added for "fun". Low back with Chiropractic _ I found a new fantastic one - settled down fairly quick - but not the rest of spine.
This all brought on by a combo of sitting on a hard bench for my Sister's divorce hearings - no they wouldn't let me sit on anything else - I tried. And compiling 6 years of medical payments from my insurance company v.s. what Kamson and Chiu claimed on spreadsheets for my Lawyer. (Hardest thing now is doing computer work) Wow, what an eyeopener that was! They had double billed and even triple billed and didn't give me the credit for all my payments and much of the insurance payments Plus, the 3rd surgery only one year after the 2nd and identical was $20K more - No wonder my Insurance Co. cut me off for the 3rd surgery. ( To update: I had 3 endoscopic microdiscemtomies with Laser on C4/5 and C6/7 at the Spine Center in Thousand Oaks, CA by Dr. Chui. He had the same model as Bonati but from what I've heard on the forum - not nearly any follow up - just keeps telling you it will get better with time if you have problems. Any way, 4 years post 3rd surgery doing badly - as in having some pain and difficulties to constant chronic pain and disabled - plus he had a Lien to collect on all the small settlement I got from the car accident thet started it all and more ! since that wasn;t enough. )
Good news is that after a 7 month flare-up the thorasic has finally settled down - yeah!!!!
Pain meds - it was soooo hard not to up them and I lost over a week since I couldn't do anything - but all along when I have a flare-up I just endure until things settle down. WA state is passing some very restrictive rules concerning pain meds - American Pain Foundation is addressing. I had to sign a Contract my last visit with my prescribing Doctor. This was so depressing after all the pain I endured the last month not to increase my dosage ( I'm on Percacet 3xs a day - no side effects) and I haven't increased in 4 years. I still had to sign this contract like I was an street addict.
Good to be back and see how everyone was doing.
And if JoeBob is still checking in - ever hear from the Chiro who had neck surgery at the same time you were there????

Joebob, I believe you said you rented a private beach resort condo when you went to Bonati. They are not listed on the Bonati website. Did you have prior information on that condo adn its location. Were they one or two bedroom condos available.
Did you know how long you planned to be there before you made reservations? Since they were not listed on the Bonati website you must be a superior investigator.

Did you check on any of the other condo's listed for example the Gulf Coast Condos?

MarieB

MJ, glad to help out and explain something if I can.

In answer to this question.

"Could this also be the cause of...........when walking you realize that your foot just drug the ground ........when you thought you are just doing a normal function of walking? (make sense)......but you know something was'nt quite right?? "

Yes, it is the cause. If you can't feel the leg, foot, thigh etc. or only have partial feeling in the area, then you think you are walking correctly, and you aren't.

It was happening to me before I had my surgery and I didn't realize it at first. At first I was limping and didn't know it. When my daughter asked me why I was now limping, I thought she was nuts. Then I took a look as I "tried to walk" and I was limping. Before I knew it the limp went more to a drag of the leg. By the time I went in for the surgery, I was dragging my leg, not able to bend my knee, and had to be very aware that my leg and foot where actually on the ground. I had barely any feeling in the entire leg.
12 hours after entering the hospital, I walked out the door and got into the car, walking like a normal person with full feeling in my entire leg and foot.

As for meds and their side affects, well all meds have them and some can be worse than others.

Someone, can't remember who, mentioned the limitied number of steroid spinal injections and something about maybe problems with having too many.

From what I've read on line and my PM doc told me, there is a problem with too many at any one given time. The usual is one epidural steroid injection about every 6 weeks and usually no more than 3 in about a year.
The reason is the side affects that can occur with them and many of them can be serious ones.

For starters, the steroid can damage muscle, nerves and tendons. as well as the following

increase blood pressure or prevent your BP meds from controlling your high blood pressure.

increase your blood sugar, including enough to make it look like you are diabetic and cause problems for diabetics.

cause cataracts are worsen cataracts that you already do have, or are developing.

cause serious dry eye

increase appetite

loss of bladder control for a period of time

increase the risk of osteoporosis or worsen it if you already have it.

cause the pre condition to osteoporosis

dural tear

nerve damage

decrease immunity for a period of a couple of months

sleeplessness

infection

headaches

weight gain

fluid retention

These side affects come with spinal epidural injections, as well as with oral or inhaled steroids except for the dura tears.

They risks also increase with each epidural that we have.

I'm not saying don't have them, as I have had 3. they didn't help, but I did suffer side affects of them and they weren't the most pleasant to have.

I also had steroid injection into my hip a few months ago after being diagnosed with bursitis in my right hip. Yup the same leg that was affected with the stenosis.

I don't know if I would have wanted to continue having the spinal injections though, even if they helped. I didn't like the idea of spinal surgery, but at the same time, the injections only relieve the pain and do not repair the problem.

Eventually the problem is going to get worse and the injections won't work any more. At that point, the original problem may be far worse than it was originally and may have caused more damage that can't be repaired.

It's a tough decision to make, but in my opinion, when nerves are involved and being compressed, that can result in irreversible nerve damage. Not a good thing to happen.
From personal experience, waiting to long can be a very risky thing to do.
Had I not had surgery when I did, as an emergency, then I would now be permenently incontinent. Not something I would want.

Hope this info helps. will post more in another post.

Fran

Carol and everyone,

This is how I post a long response and it really is a royal pain in the you no what

First thing I do is bring up the forum, but don't log in. then I open a new window and have the same page. I log into the forum to post, which will have the other window with the page logged in as well.

Then I write my post as long as I want for how ever long I want. When I'm done, I click to copy the entire post. Then go to the other window and log out. As soon as I'm logged out on that page, I log right back in again and click to post a reply. Paste the reply into the message body, put in a subject and click submit.

I sent the powers that be an e-mail about the problem a while ago and the response was "they will look into it". Until I hear it is "problem solved" I will continue to post in the method I am doing, cause it's a real pain to be timed out all the time.

Fran

Joebob, just to make sure I am on the same page as you, was the condo you rented in a high rise?

I see on their website that they do give Bonati clients special rates.
I believe you said your wife went with you. Was she happy with the place?
I ask that because men can be oblivious of their surroundings but more attune to the cost of a place.

Do please let me know of the other condo that is rented out @$1500 per month, and who is the contact person for renting by sending a private message if such information is not allowed to be posted on this site.

Thanks Joebob.
Marie B.

Hello MJ,

Hope you have found a good non-stop flight. I wish you success in the days to come.

Yes, Fran really has a store of info. We are very fortunate to have her as part of our family here.

Thank goodness I've not had any of the bad side effects Fran mentions.

Take care.

RichT

Hello Fran,

First, THANKS for the great info regarding epidurals and their potential side effects. Thank goodness I didn't have any negative side effects from my first back in April.

I had three WONDERFUL almost pain free days until this evening. Checked the weather and noticed the barometer started to go down at 1 pm and is continuing to decline. I think I need to be in a pressure stabilized environment. HA that's not going to happen. LOL

Okay, about posting. I tried to send our admin a PM about our problems in posting. Would you believe it is "stuck" in "Outbox".

Have an ENJOYABLE Day!

RichT