At 3 week post op visit, I was still doing great and felt like a whole new person. given pt prescription and started PT.

Didn't realize how weak the muscles where that I hadn't been using till then and find out that I hadn't been using them for quite a few years.

A couple of weeks into PT, the first complication arouse. I suddenly started having floaters in my right eye. I was aware that this could happen because of the position you are put in during spinal surgery puts a terrible strain on the retinas and combined with my age, I was 56 there was a 50% chance that it would happen. That means 100% for me.

So off to the eye doc to be checked for tears or detachment and have been monitored frequently since. It also put restrictions on some of the exercises I could do then and can do know for my back. That's resulted in not regaining strength in some of the muscle in my butt and it has become permenently weakend and will always give me a bit of discomfort to low level pain.

Then in mid to end August, I started noticing pain in both ankles, right worse than left and tingling in my feet again, right worse than left. Called the doc and he wanted me to see the foot and ankle ortho in the office and he would see me also.

This was not directly a spine problem but caused by correcting the spinal stenosis and standing up correctly again and now standing on my feet properly. They had gotten used to the way I stood, which no one noticed as not being completly straight and now I was putting lots of strain on the muscles, ligaments and nerves in my feet and ankles. DX: tarsal tunnel syndrome, very common after spinal surgery. Treatment was custom orthotics and PT for my feet. Great, had just finished my PT for my back and I'm back there with new problems. That's after 2 years there for my arms. Oh, and need good shoes, either walking or cross trainers only and they prefer walking ones, the good ones from New Balance.

So have the orthotics, have the shoes, did the PT and if I'm on my feet for hours on end they can be a problem and I do exercises for them too.

So all is going fine and I'm back to a life, a little slower than it used to be, but feeling great and so happy to have had the surgery.

then I started feeling some discomfort in my right hip. something new and never had that before. afraid there is something wrong with the spine again and call the doc. This was in May of 2007.
Go into the doc and have xrays to find out I know have bursitis in my right hip. Gives me a cortisone shot into my right hip, works great and I loose bladder control from the cortisone for 25 hours. And you guessed it, back to PT for the hip. beginning to think I should just move my bed into the place.

Get that going and now I'm doing exercises for my arms, hands and wrist, my back, my feet and now my hip every day. 4 hours in total of them and I spread them out over the day.

I thought i was pretty good with the don't overdo bit, but and I mean but.

I really blew it this time.

Since before my spine went, we had to get rid of my car. Hey 20 years with a toyota camry and it all went at once. So when I want the car, I have to drive my hubby to work and pick him up. We where getting another car for me but that's on hold now.

4 weeks ago, I took him to work and came home. Went out to a doctors appt. and after there, did a bunch of errands. In and out of the car and driving for a couple of hours. Came home walked around my gardens, came in and by daughter came by to visit and we where going out for dinner for dad's birthday. Watered the gardens, we drove back to get hubby, went to dinner, came home, daughter went home, checked e-mail heard the news, took a shower and went to bed.

About 3 hours later, I must have moved in my sleep and woke up with a scream of pain in my butt, OMG did it hurt. Couldn't move, couldn't sit, thought holy crap, what did I do. Got out of bed, came down, put my rice sock on it and it felt better, but couldn't sit had to tie it on and stand.
Went like this for a couple of days and it didn't get better, so back to the spine doc.
Now he comes into the exam room, looks at me and my friend the nurse and just burst out laughing. If I hadn't been in so much pain I might have slugged him. He thinks it's funny that I haven't learned yet to not overdo and now look at me. So examines and goes, "well when you do it, you really do it, and you do it all the way, no half ass job from you." So the bad news is, I didn't just overdo and strain the muscle in the butt that attaches to the muscle going up the back, I tore the damn muscle. I have a 50/50 shot at healing it with PT, if it doesn't heal, it's he OR with an endoscope to stitch it and then I will have some restrictions.

All that sitting and driving in one position all day into the evening was more than my body was used to, so when I went to bed, Ifroze the muscle that was not well used all day and the slightest movement in bed tore it.
Got to get used to doing these things again, "get another car already", the doc says.

PT is slowly working we think but not sure yet and won't be for another 2 weeks.

Seems like I can't win, but am still glad I had the surgery and would do it all over again.

Fran

How tall are you little one?

And before I comment on your multiple posts, I have to go back and read all of them again.
I'm sure you have heard of comedy within tragedy. All that you went through is the tragedy. but how you have handled it and expressed it to all of us is the comedy. Bless you for all of your smiles among the tears with the sharing of the your agony and the ecstacy of living without the old pain. We should
give you an award for your bravery and persistence.
So we take it all one day at a time.

Will respond more after I re-read all your posts.

Marie B.

Carol, this is what I understand so far about the subject. When the Ortho MD claimed I had spondy and would need fusion, I said "how can that be when the MRI Report specifically states, "No Spondylolithisis seen." The Ortho, replied "You can't see slippage on an MRI. You need an X-ray to determine spondy." With his using those words, I am assumming slippage and spondy mean the same problem. I WAS NEVER TOLD THAT EVERYONE HAS SOME SLIPPAGE. But that would seem logical for that area; L4-L5,S1 That is the most bendable area of the spine....forward and backward and sideways. I'm always trying to exercise and widdle my waist back to its 22" size that it was when I was married; about 43 years ago...haha...talk about challenges and loosing battles.
Another thing about that X-Ray. It was taken in the Ortho's office. When I finally got his written report, he said nothing about the DEGREE OF SLIPPAGE. I am wondering if I would have gotten a better report if it had been ordered by my primary physician and I had gone to the hospital and gotten a radiologist report. I am going to talk to my MD about that.

I had an appointment with my pain management Dr. 4 days after seeing the Ortho.. I was a bit steamed about "no spondy" on the MRI and the spondy on X-ray. In my mind it was "no wonder the injections aren't doing anything". My PM stated "the MRI only views soft tissue and X-Ray shows the hard tissue of bone/the vertebrae". He didn't perceive my slippage as being excessive but to confirm his thinking, he gave me the names of two other surgeons who were at the hospital's spine clinic. That is now in the works. Probably another month before I get in the door.

He also did not believe my pain was from any slippage. He keeps pointing to the facets as the problem. I received Lumbar injections, and nothing was ever said about doing facet injections. I don't know if they are the same thing. That's another question to put on my ever growing list. I do wish my brain would think faster when I am in the physicians' presence.
Marie B.

Rich, O.K. I know how old you are because you revealed that on an old post on another forum. I know all your secrets.

I'm 3 years younger.

I have a friend who will be having fusion surgery Sept. 14. I tried to get him to rethink his position. He had back surgery in the past., twice, I believe.
He is 6 years older then you. Rich.

When I was talking to my friend, he said," You know girl, I'm ? (6 years older then Rich) and when you get to be my age, you know there is not much more in life that I would rather do then "play golf." If fusion surgerygets me on that golf course again and I can swing the club, that's all I ask.
Now how can you argue with a man like that?

I know your favorite hobby is gardening. If you can do what you still love to do, and do it without excessive pain, then I can't argue with the doctor's decision that you can do without surgery. If you agree with him then I say, "Amen." So continue your life and "Go with God."
'till He changes your direction.
Marie B.

MJ 57. You asked if I had cervical problems. Hmmm Not like yours, I think.
But I have been to a chiro in the past for subluxation of the cervical area.
I had had surgery on my left shoulder due to a bone spur and torn rotator cuff which resulted in open surgery instead of Arthroscopic surgery. In 12 week after PT my arm was as good as new. A year later I started having pain in what I thought was a similar place in the right shoulder. Went to my favorite Ortho, who does not do spines, and he said he believed my problem was a neck shoulder problem. After 8 weeks of chiro, and at the same time going to a neuromuscular therapist, it was decided that my pain was from "pressure points" in the muscles that was causing my pain. No one suggested injections although they do treat pressure points thorugh injection. I just would find the edge of a piece of furniture and push like heck on various areas that were found in the curve between the neck and the shoulder. It would hurt like heck, but constant pressure would reduce the pain. In the meantime, the massage and the manipulation of the cervical vertebrae caused a cessation of the pain. Now when I feel the neck, shoulder and the inner aspect of the tissues between the spine and the scapular bone begin to cause problems, I go through my pressure points and go to my therapist who helps keep the muscles around my cervical area loose and warm. I also use ice on the neck during problem times.
I've also become good at rubbing front and back muscles of the neck with the teadhing help of my therapist.
I have never had to have an MRI of that area. X-Rays show no out of place vertebraes, I just believe it is the pull and tug of the muscles on the vertebrae as I age that causes me the problem. I am fortunate in that location so far. But who knows what the future holds.
Mare B.

Fran,
Thanks for the funny rundown of your trouble. Of course, the things are not funny to you, but you still have the humor to relate them to us. I'm so sorry everything seemed to happen at once after your operation *when it rains, it definitely pours*, and I had no idea about the eye problems caused by the position in surgery.

It sounds like some of your problems were actually caused because your back improved (ankles). Great to hear you're back to life and slowly adapting to the changes post op. I gotta believe your back is going to be fine after a period of adjustment.

Just reading all about your many maladies made me feel less sorry for myself. Haha! Sorry about your butt muscle. I pulled one playing football many moons ago and it was painful. I can't imagine the pain when you tear it.

Anyway, just wanted to say good luck and I enjoyed reading your interesting post.

Fran, if I understood you correctly, you had stenosis, right?

To correct this problem, your doctor performed a Laminotomy on each of the L4 L5 S1 in addition to the shaving of the lateral recesses of the vertebrae.
Because of the presence of the stenosis, did the doctor say anything about your having the least bit of slippage in those particular vertebrae?
Did he say there was a possibility of slippage in the future?

And I don't know if it is right or wrong, but you mention Boston as the place
where you had surgery done.
I have family just outside of Boston. Cousins who are nurses too. I would love to know the name of the facility and doctor. He sounded very thorough in working with you. True, some of his expectations of you left you more time to be in pain but nobody is perfect.
I would love to know more about this In/Out surgery. That's what it is called????In/Out???

I don't know if on this Forum if you are allowed to name the place and doctor, but we all have been throwing the names of Bonati, and LSI, and of course there was Dr. Tolli down south. What's one more place and doctor?
Would you share those names with us?
Marie B

Friends, help. It is obvious that I am not a good internet searcher.

I know I have read somewhere about the procedure that Fran had.
Spinal surgery with the entry site on the side. And it is minimal invasive surgery. If anyone stumbles on it please provide the website.

Fran, I can't help wondering if there is another medical term for that type of surgery other then "In/Out'? If there is anything on your insurance papers, or somewhere in your records would you please identify this type of surgery.

Marie B

Hi Marie,

I don't have any ins. papers as BC/BS sends you nothing unless it is specifically requested or there is money owed that is more than the co-pay.

My discharge paperwork reads the following under reason for Hospitalization and surgery.

"right outside and left inside out L4-L5, L5-S1 decompression for spinal stenosis of the lateral recess."

I only know it as that and have not done a search on line for the info. I did not have a laminotomy, but only a partial, a small piece removed to get to the lateral recess area on the right side of the vertebrae. That is where all the pain I had and nerve compression, on my right side.

My doctor told me that based on the success of this procedure, that I have full stability in my spine, no restrictions on any kind of motion of movement and my body will be my guide as to what I can and can't do. I had no slippage of the vertebrae and he he told me that there would be none because of this surgery. Everything was too stable and sturdy.
He couldn't make any guarentees about the future or developing other problems later on down the road. To quote him. "this vertebrae isn't going to cause you any further problems after this surgery" and said the same thing on my follow up last visit.

Some restrictions that I do have now are just based on additional problems that have developed as a consequence of correcting the spinal problems to begin with and the dificulties I have with the tendon's in both of my arms, along with the bursitis in the hip and the eye problem.

My arms are no longer capable of lifting anything more than 15 pounds when using them together. I have no upper strength in my right arm to do so. An attempt could and probably would tear the flexor pronator tendon in my right arm and very possibly the left one, because I suffer from a permenent problem of microscopic tears in those tendons in both arms.

I also can't lift more than that weight because of the floaters and concern that the retinas will tear or detach.

I'm not sure if it is classified as minimally invasive surgery or not. It was an open spine surgery. The doc did not use endoscopic tools and muscle was cut. the incision is very small, only 1 inch, but that is partly because I used a sports medicine orthopedic surgeon. They use as small an incision as possible to start with and enlarge it only if needed.

My Surgery was not done in Boston, I went to Boston for other opinions. My doc is in a suburb north of Boston, but does have affiliations with some of the Biggest hospitals in Boston.

I personally don't feel right advertising my doc's name and offices on a public forum. I just don't think it is the proper thing to do with out asking first, but will privately e-mail you the info and will be glad to do so for anyone else who would like the info.

Fran

Lonestar, thanks.

I've got to have some humor to survive this stuff or I would go off the deep end for sure.

It's nice to be going to the same PT/OT place for all these years. The PTS/OT are there and it's just a standing joke now.

I walk in and the chorus is "What does it take to get through to you, don't overdo?"

My OT for my arms, just grins at them all and says, "must be I'm better at it than all of you, cause she never overdoes her arms, hands, fingers and wrists."
She conveniently forgets to mention to all the PTs there that the minute I start to overdo with the arms, the tingle sensation starts and I know I have to stop what I'm doing and stretch and rest them.

Not so lucky with the spinal stuff though, don't feel anything until it's too late.

ONE THING I FORGOT TO MENTION IS THAT MY DOC TOLD ME THAT THE MOST COMMON REASON FOR FAILED SPINAL SURGERY FOR DECOMPRESSION IS A FAILURE TO DECOMPRESS THE LATERAL ARTICULATE AND THE LATERAL RECESS.

THIS HAS BEEN KNOWN AND PUBLISHED ABOUT SINCE 1981, YET IT IS STILL IGNORED BY DOCTORS ALL THE TIME.

Now that's scary stuff. After my doc told me this I did some searching on line about it and this link is the first thing that popped up with a google search. worth a read for sure.

http://www.burtonreport.com/InfSpine/AnatL atSpinalSten.htm

Fran

Good Morning to you all,
Thank you all so much. People in general take much for granted only because we are human. important factor is that we learn through everything in this life and so many people are so supportive in many ways. Sometimes I think people don't even realize that a simple word or one sentence how much help it brings to another person. I can sympathize, have empathy as well with all of you in this forum. I was there in 1988 with a herniated disk, pressing against the siatic nerve putting me into muscle spasms 24 hrs. a day for 7 solid weeks. I was unable to sit, walk or stand due to the pressure was so great in the calf of my left leg. When I tried to stand, I went to the floor. My husband, 2 sons and daughter, Carrianne took care of me. I could have had surgery the next morning, but the Dr. said if I could tolerate the pain and have the patience to lay it out I'd head. I chose to lay it out. It took 7 weeks to lay it out, the 8th week I got up and walked with a walker, advanced to a cane, tossed the cane and dragged my leg. Had I not been able to walk I'd have had to go into surgery the 9th week. Back then there was no laser surgery that we knew of anyways. We had no health insurance at that time either. So much was taken into account. Even this day and age many of you and Carrianne too would say don't rush into surgery, take it one day at a time. Then when it gets to be too much take action.
Carrianne did well over the weekend. She will be seeing Dr. Bonati today. Her headache is gone but she does have some little pains here and there that are only for a second. But she also has a knot in the base of her neck. So it's a tight muscle and is that creating the head to hurt for a second in different places. We'll find out today and she's hoping they will take another MRI to make sure. We watched 2 movies over the weekend and it was such a blessing to see a smile and my daughter laughing again. Little did we know back in 1988 when a little 10 year old girl was talking care of her mom bedridden that her mom would be taking care of her as a young woman. She's a trooper! She says mine was worse than hers. No, I don't think so, it just pressed differently on nerves, etc. You all take care, God Bless you all and have a great day. Kathy

Hello Everyone,

Kathy, - I hope Carrianne's visit with Dr. Bonati went well today. So wonderful to read that her smile and laughter are returning. Thanks so much for the update. I know we will be looking forward to your continuing updates on your daughter.

Thanks Kathy for sharing about what you have gone through with your spinal difficulties. All such sharing helps me to better sort things out for myself.

Fran - WOW what a book you have written. I tried to read as much as I could with this damn time restriction at the library. After reading about your doc, makes me wish I had a spinal doc like him. NEVER has any doc showed me what a "normal" spine should look like. That would really help to better understand things.

MJ - Wish you the best. Would like to write more, but I'm down to less than a minute.

RichT

Thanks Fran. That will be a big help. I'll contact my relatives in Mass. for more detailed information. I appreciated your help.

MarieB

The following is from the AARP Bulletin.

Prices at Bangkok's Bumrungrad Hospital vs. average costs at private hospitals in the United States.

Prostate surgery
$5,000-$7000 versus
$35,000-$40,000

Comprehensive Checkup" $400 versus $2000

SPINAL SURGERY
$6000-$8000 versus
$50,000 - $70,000

Open-heart bypass surgery
$10,000 versus
$60,000-$80,000

There's more and I could go on, but who wants to have surgery at Bankok?
Marie

Good Morning once more to you all.
Carrianne and her husband walked inside Target last night. Dr. Bonati said he's not going to make her wait, keep wondering if it's this and that, wants her to be able to distinguish what is what for sure with no doubt. If anything is going to happen it's going to happen with her daily activity within 2 days so get up and go about your day carefully without worrying. She has 2 days to feel 100% better. If she is 100% Wednesday she'll be on her way back to Tampa. If not, he's going in, finding the leak and stitching it up so she can return to a normal life. It's the second guessing head pains in different places lasting a second at a time, back pain but is it stiffness?? If anything comes about today she is to call Bonati Institute immediately and they will take her in. Please keep Carrianne in your prayers today and tomorrow. Thank you so much! Take care, God Bless, and you all have a wonderful day. Kathy

In the most Holy Will of God, I will pray for Carrianne.
MarieB

Hi everyone! Wow, I sure have a lot of reading to catch up on when I'm back to 100%. My mom has done a great job at keeping you all updated. Thanks Mom! Love you lots!

The headache from the dura leak is gone. I do still get little pains here and there, but don't think it's related. I have more pain my back, but suspect it's from laying down for the majority of the last 2 weeks (and sleeping in a bed that isn't mine).

I finally got outside yesterday which was wonderful! God sure lets you know how beautiful the outside is, especially when you haven't seen it in a while. I saw a red cardinal, tons of blue jays, and a rainbow! Good signs!!

Dr. Bonati isn't comfortable with my having to have 3 blood patches and seems to be leaning in the direction of going back in to find and seal the leak once and for all. That scares me a lot, but if that's what it will to take to be done with this, then I'll comply. I'm just scared of reliving the past 2 weeks.

THANK YOU ALL for all of your prayers and well wishes. I can't tell you enough how much I truly appreciate your concern. The last couple of weeks have been tough, but it's people like you who make it sooo much easier to walk THROUGH things like this. You are all in my prayers.

I will start reading the last 4 pages of this thread and responding individually as soon as I can. It's moving along so quickly!

God bless you all!!!!
Carrianne

Hello Carrianne,

It was so wonderful to see your post. That in itself is encouraging. Two difficult weeks I'm sure, however, your very positive attitude and God's comforting hand will see you through.

Anyone that says the doctors at the laser institutes don't really care about their patients, has not seen/experienced the dedicated care you have and will continue to have at Bonati Institute.

The good Lord is having some busy days with our continued prayers for you.

Take care. My thoughts and prayers are and will continue to be with you.

RichT

Hello MJ,

My apology for a short memory, however, if I recall correctly you have or will shortly be having surgery. Would you be so kind as to refresh my memory. Thanks!!

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

RichT

Rich T When are you going to get that computer up and running again?
Don't you know that you are the cheerleader for everyone in the laser forum; always having a good word, thought or cheer for each person

Marie B