but really lets face facts.. even if proof does come that jesus never existed would it be enough for the christians? they dont go off facts so why would this prove anything to them in the end anyway. we could wave proof in the churchs faces and theyd still tell us its been put there to "test our faith".


any one care to answer this to this one?

I don't think anyone's arguing that. There are great christians. There are some awful ones. Just like there are great atheists, and awful ones. I think people argue the use of religion as a means of discrimination, and that is everywhere. Maybe not outwardly in your church, but think about it- are women allowed to preach in your church? Perhaps. Are gay people allowed to go to heaven? Get married? Have their children baptized? Probably not. And the bible (as a piece of fact) is often used as a work of fact about what jesus/god said to justify this. That's why we like to argue against the bible as a work of fact.

Anyway, in response to redeme's post, I don't really feel the need to prove to christians that jesus didn't exist. Maybe he did? What do I know. And if his existence is proving positive in their lives, why is that a bad thing to believe in? But we should question the use of the 'historical' jesus in discrimination.

No, you're right. They would consider conclusive proof of Jesus being fake as the beginning of the end times and a test of their faith. They would simply become more fanatical.

But what's the point? Why do we need to proove to christians that jesus if not real? He's real to them.

I see no point in proving or disproving Jesus.

However, I DO see a point for NOT including God as a "fact" during a debate, because religion is not fact.

for the mere fact that its historys GREATEST mystery. at least in modern times. i for one would find it extremly calming to know maybe that theres nothing after i die. least i have no expectations lol. people believe what they like and i dont have a problem with that. really tho wouldnt you like to know?

Ok I understand. I was getting the idea that you all were going to run around to every christian you could find and say "JESUS DOESN'T EXIST! WHAT NOW?"

my priest is a woman. she is an ordained reverend and a Ph.D and she is a wonderful, tireless ball of energy and faith and love. our organist is gay. i took family counselling with another priest in our diocese who is openly gay. we don't have gay marriage but they can have their unions blessed.

sometimes i need that middle man to help me love everyone and everything, especially the everyones and everythings that i would otherwise find despicable. i'm only human after all.

Where do you go to church? Are you a unitarian universalist? I'm impressed.

But I would like to remind you that this isn't the norm.

That's too bad. I have faith in mankind without needing someone to tell me to do it. I think morally, THAT is the higher ground. Being able to love someone without threats of "he and damnation" is TRULY benevolence.

You can only truely love someone if God exists

You keep believing that, you affectionless psychopath.

Proof?

God is the source of all Good things

This is the most circular argument in the history of the universe. It's like a never-ending merry-go-round of STFU.

OTHER THAN THAT YOU MORON. Stop trying to define a word by using the word in the definition.

"What does bicycle mean?"
"A Bicycle is a Bike..."

I don't understand what you're trying to say. I think Jesus was an influential man, though our understanding of him has been tarnished by centuries of corruption and absolute religious power. Whether or not he was a divine being is what, for me, is debatable... and that's just for me personally.


They have been confirmed... non-rationally.

you're totally missing the point but i guess it's okay since you are so morally superior.

I guess I am missing the point. Do I believe I am morally superior because I don't need someone to tell me right from wrong on a daily basis? Yep.