The Jesus spoken of in the bible is real and I believe in him. What I don't like is people who try to get you to go to their church everyday and interfere with your life.

Heh I feel like religious debates should be excluded from these forums -_-. Too many people get offended to talk openly. The last pro-Jesus here basically said we are going to go to hell for thinking about our beliefs, naturally thats going to offend quite a bit of non Christian/Catholics. Heck, it would offend me if it wasn't for the fact that I'm used to being told that I'm going to go to hell some scores if not a few low hundreds of times.

I dunno moderators, what ya think, its ok to keep religious topics up? They are certainly quite interesting, but they always get down to the same thing where the anti says "I will believe in whatever I want and your God doesn't exist", and the other talks about "you will burn in hell for all eternity"

Well yeah we should keep it up, but it would be nice if everyone was able to approach it in a more open way.

sorry, I wuz just expressin my opinion, sorry 4 ofending every1

MMAFighter- we weren't talking about you!

Almost no one is putting down Jesus. Actually, most of us believe he existed as a real human being. We respect him and the work he did. We think he was a fine man. We DON'T believe he was divine, but why does that make such a difference?



So good people go to hell just because they don't believe in your deity. That's not very forgiving.



You can say them, but we're going to respond back.

It's a little more complicated than "let there be light".

Billions of years ago, a nearby star went supernova, ejecting a could of dust called a nebula. Eventually, this dust began to condense and spin. In the center where gravity made it densest and hottest, nuclear fusion began to happen: it was so hot and so heavy that atoms were pressed together to make new ones. The moment this happened, our sun exploded into existnence.

How do we know this? We have proof of it in the night sky. We can see the process of solar-system development by opening our eyes to the universe all around us. Astronomers and physicists have spent decades on these discoveries. It is all mathematically possible, and we can see it happening all around us.



Birds are actually descendants of dinosaurs according to modern evolutionary theory. If you compare the bones of the youngest dinosaurs and the oldest birds you see that the lines converge. There is fossil evidence of this evolution from reptile to bird. It isn't hooey, it is provable.



Why not? Actually, "from monkeys" is incorrect anyway; as any anthropologist will tell you, ALL primates (that includes us humans, gorillas, chimps, etc) evolved from an ape-LIKE creature - not a modern "monkey". If you want proof of that, watch discovery channel some day. Pick up a National Geographic. Read real modern evolutionary theory. It's not hocus pocus.

Alright... so then all of what you just posted about supernovas and dinosaurs and primates all go back to one question... where did they all come from. And by the way... the discovery channel is a joke when it comes to all that stuff. There have been so many lies about science and evolution. Darwin himself who started the whole evolution debate and made it public said there would be no way that anything could evolve if it wasn't for a creator... so get back to the origins please. Oh and by the way...

Supernovas are a natural occourance, they don't "come" from anywhere. When a star runs out of hydrogen it begins to collapse, and eventually reaches a point where it explodes (if it's big enough obviously).

Only a true fool would discredit the Discovery Channel with no proof... *sigh* There was no point of me even trying, why did I bother? Well, because I hope each and every time that common sense will actually work.

You just jinxed yourself. You said "Darwin said evolution couldn't happen without a creator." Yeah, so what? It still means evolution could happen. Many many people believe that God created the universe and caused the Big Bang, and that he then had a deciding hand in making evolution start up on our planet etc. Evolution is NOT incompatible with a belief in God. It is only incompatible with a literal belief in Genesis.

By the way... name one lie in current accepted evolutionary theory.

Why do I say current and accepted? Because if it's old and/or not accepted, then that means it has either been disproven or doesn't have enough evidence to support it yet. In science, it is OKAY to disprove things. That doesn't make it a "lie", it simply means we didn't know enough before, and now we do. It is a lie only if you promote it as truth AFTER the real truth is known.

Take the heliocentric model of the solar system for example. Normal sane people understand that the sun is in the middle of our solar system and that we revolve around it. Centuries ago, many people thought the Earth was in the middle. It wasn't a LIE, it was simply what they thought the truth was. Once they discovered that this wasn't true, the new fact became that the sun is in the middle. Only people who still believe the earth is in the middle are lying.

The big bang is what came before everything started. Before that? What caused it? Scientists don't know, and they don't claim to be arrogant enough to know, unlike you.

So essentially you're saying that a star created itself? Hmm... Would you like to explain how that works. And I have one thing to say about evolution, it's a theory. It's like believing in all the things that The DaVinci Code claimed even though IT IS A NOVEL! It is simply a matter of probability. Let me write out for you the chance it would take for macro-evolution to be a reality.

100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000 Borel's Law states (and this is a law, not just a theory) that anything with a probability of less than than that number cannot be attributed to chance. Now the probability of evolution itself actually occuring would be adding 30 zero's onto that number. Also, if the earth was 15 Billion years old there would only be
1,000,000,000,000,000,000 seconds in all of time. But saying the earth is 15 Billion years old is being generous. So simply from that, there is no way humans evolved from nothing.

Secondly, how about THE LAW of noncontradiction? This law is very very simple. It states that A cannot be A and non-A at the same time. But in order for evolution to correct, you're required to believe in self-creation. So the definition of macro-evolution in itself is contradictory because in order for something to come from nothing it has to create itself. In effect, for something to create itself it must be before it is.

As far as the lie goes, lets take the story of the English Peppered Moth. This is the traditional story that used to be in textbooks in school in an attempt to argue for evolution. Before the Industrial Revolution in England, there were light colored English Peppered Moths that blended with lichen on trees, that were far more prevalent than the "melanic" or dark colored English Peppered Moths. However, the story is that pollution from the Industrial Revolution killed the lichen and darkened the bark on trees. So, the light colored moths became easy prey for birds. The dark colored moths on the other hand were able to camouflage themselves because the bark was darker and therefore they became more common than the lighter colored moths. Then as pollution was reduced and the lichen began to appear again the light colored moths began to increase. But really this doesn't prove anything because both types of moths were present before the changes and both of them survived the changes and the populations balanced out. They didn't create another species or even show the slightest indications of evolving. More than anything this proves stasis rather than the survival of the fittest which evolutionists endorse. Maybe, maybe at the best this would prove micro-evolution which is built into all organisms. Alleles within the genes provide self-preserving modification. The alleles within the genes of the Peppered Moth make it able to produce dark and light colored moths, but it never provides the ability to become another insect. Also, lets think about this some more, it has been proven that English Peppered Moths are night-fliers and during the day they rest under branches at the tops of trees. So how in the world did they get pictures of the moths on the tree trunks during the day? Let's think here. In an attempt to prove evolution knowing how completely asinine it is, the moths (which are inactice and sluggish during the day) were placed on the tree trunks.

I could talk about all the challenges to evolution all day: The Scientific Laws challenge, the information challenge, the irrducible complexity challenge, the fossil record challenge, the mutations challenge, the miracles of flight challenge, the instincts challenge. But this would take all day and a lot of typing.

As far as the big bang goes. You probably think I am against the big bang because I am arguing for intelligent design. But to be honest I believe in Old-Earth Creation which happens to believe that the big bang is evidence for intelligent design. Being arrogant about what cause the big bang is one thing, but using common sense by looking around and reading about how fine tuned the universe is knowing that there is no way anything or anyone but an intelligent being created this universe is another. I refuse to use the umbrella of "science" as a crutch for my excuse to disbelieve in a God who created the universe in order so he could love me. I'm telling you, if you just take time to look around, read about how fine tuned the universe is, there is no way you'll be able to say, "this is one big coincidence." I hope I didn't sound harsh or anything when it came to me making this argument. I can't prove to you God created the universe but I can show you the evidence for why I believe He has. That's all that you can do. I weighed the evidence and I found that there is no way evolution caused all of this to happen. But none of this changes the fact that there is a God who loves you. The earth is beautiful and He created it just for you!

No, pea brain. I said a SUPERNOVA doesn't create itself. Learn to read, Hmm?



You DO realise that the universe existed long, long before the Earth did, right? So what about all of those seconds?

What if the Earth was only 6,000 years old as "begot" theorists say? That's even less seconds. Sounds pretty silly, huh?



We didn't evolve from "nothing"; that truly WOULD be amazing! I'm not going to get in to evolutionary theory with you because you don't care. I could pull out a scientifically accepted text and explain the development of proto-life on Earth but you're not going to listen to me anyway,

are you?



No you don't... I don't see how evolution is self-creation at all. There were all the materials needed to create life on prehistoric Earth. All of the elements in your body were here on this planet. Nothing was "created" since it was already there. It needed to be combined, yes, but not "created". Again, evolutionary theory is rather complicated and long-winded and I know you're not going to listen anyway. "And then there was light" is nice and simple, so you can keep on believing that, 'kay?



Actually that story is about NATURAL SELECTION, NOT EVOLUTION. Because the environment they moths lived in favored dark colored moths at one point, more dark colored moths survived. Not all pale moths died out because the darkened environment didn't last LONG enough for natural selection to become a permanent adaption.

You see, you already explained evolution and you don't even realise it.

"Both kinds of moths existed already". Yes. In environments, a bird with a longer beak may exist among his relatives. Many long-beaked birds may exist, yet are still the same species. However, if short flowers die out, birds with short beaks will SLOWLY die out. If short flowers returned in time, then short beaked birds would make a come-back. If not, then the EVOLUTIONARY ADVANTAGE of a longer beak would let the long beaked birds survive.

Perhaps, even, some of the short beaks fly to a new island where there are short flowers. The two kinds of birds will diverge even more in their evolution once they are isolated.



Again, they didn't get a chance to as the dark environment didn't last long enough. Secondly, evolution doesn't happen that fast.

You want fast adaption? Look at bacteria. Bacteria evolve into new species every single day, every year. That's why you still get sick: the germ is different than it was the last time you caught it.



Absolutely not, as the Big Bang is completely compatible with Intelligent Design and a belief in God in general.


I don't use science to disprove God either. I simply don't believe in him. There is no way to prove he does or does not exist.


Many people feel the same way you do as well. They are also trying to reconcile their religion and the logic of science.



Evolution didn't cause the big-bang I know your point however.

I personally looked at all the evidence and couldn't see how life could have developed EXCEPT through evolution. It makes perfect, beautiful sense to me.



Please don't force that belief down my throat. Say it to yourself all you want; I do not believe and I find it offensive to be preached to.

You completely picked apart all those points in ways that are completely irrelevant. But nice try. It doesn't matter to you if I make points against evolution either because you're not going to listen are you? Exactly, before you say something like that why don't you examine yourself and ask that question again? Nice try though. You want to know what I find offensive, I find it offensive that you're so set on the fact that evolution was the way you got here because of all the propaganda that has been shown to you in the form of "science" from all the biased beyond belief evolutionists who are standing in the same boat as you. I find it absolutely offensive that the children and teenagers in this society have followed the philosophy of "You and me baby ain't nothing but mammals so lets do it like they do on the DISCOVERY CHANNEL." because that's what they've been taught. They've been taught that I just evolved from some primate so it doesn't matter who I have sex with because I'm nothing more than a glorified beast. You want to know what's offensive about that? That's the same crap that's being shoved down the youth of this country's throat and mine, in the name of science. But guess what? You're preaching too aren't you? You're just preaching under a different name then I am buddy! Think about it. I don't care what you want to believe but I refuse to walk away with the excuse that God doesn't exist just because I want to have a reason to live my futile life, for a longing of nothing more than sex, drugs and just being here because life sucks and I'm forced to live it. If life is so bad that you have to believe that we evolved from an ape then I'm sorry man... you're just another victim of the crossed up, conflicted and completely wrong culture that's being carried away in a casket of compromise. I know you... you really do have to look around and find reasons to believe God doesn't exist, because if He really does then that means you have to stop living life the way that you want to live and actually live life the way He has called you to. I've slept in that same bed man... and guess what I found... life is futile. I'm offended also that just someone telling you that the God that created the universe loves you is offensive. But I would challenge you to really find out what the meaning of love is. Because Jesus wasn't just a man or Josephus the most respected historian of that time who wasn't even a Christian wouldn't have documented the fact that Jesus' tomb was empty. And there wouldn't be the testimony of more than 500 people who saw Jesus after He was raised from the dead, in a culture that was carried on by the word of mouth. I'm sorry dude... but you're going to have to look life in the face someday and choose to live it for real.

i believe Jesus existed. but i hate those people that try toconvience u of something u dont believe in. like this girl in my school was trying to convience me he was crusified on a stick?!

I picked apart the parts based in actual fact, yes.

Do you deny what I said about the moths and the birds? Seriously, what is your opinion on what I said?

A stick? O.o A cross is made of wood, so I guess you could call that one heck of a big stick...

I believe he existed, or someone very similar, and I totally believe he was crucified as it was a common form of punishment back then.

What you said about moths and birds is again irrelevant because that's talking about micro-evolution. Not macro-evolution. That's my opinion. It still doesn't change the fact that the whole story was made up. So it's not really a matter of opinion anymore because the story is invalid. The only reason I showed you was because you asked me to show you something about accepted current evolution that was false and I did. You said it wasn't about evolution but rather natural selection. But anyways, my point was to say that it was a fabricated story that has no significance because it is a complete lie. I'm still wondering why you decided not to pick apart my last post? I think it's hilarious though that someone would try to convince you he was crucified on a stick not a cross. Was she a Jehovah's witness?

It wasn't talking about evolution at all as I said. It is natural selection. If its just your opinion, then don't flaunt it like it is a fact, since it's not (as you said) - its JUST your opinion.

If you don't want people to reply to you, don't post here.

It wasn't talking about evolution at all as I said. It is natural selection. If its just your opinion, then don't flaunt it like it is a fact, since it's not (as you said) - its JUST your opinion.

If you don't want people to reply to you, don't post here.

It wasn't talking about evolution at all as I said. It is natural selection. If its just your opinion, then don't flaunt it like it is a fact, since it's not (as you said) - its JUST your opinion.

If you don't want people to reply to you, don't post here.

Which group are the real creationists or intelligent designers?

Flat Earthers? The believe the Earth is flat as the say the Bible states.
Geocentrists? They believe the sun and everything else revolves around the Earth, as they say the Bible states.
Young Earthers? They believe the Earth is 6,000 years old, as they say the Bible states.
Old Earthers? They believe the days in Genesis represented eons, and so this does not conflict with science, and the age of the Earth is exactly as they say the Bible states.