I believe in Christ as well, and i dont think God created this universe for just humans. The Bible is a book on the way we should live our lives, not the answers to the universe. I went to catholic school for 8 years and never once did my teachers say "the stars were created for light and direction at night.(and our entire calender system)". Maybe you should stop taking the bible so literally and think for yourself.

How misled one is to base their entire belief system on a man who did not exist. I see no difference in worshipping this religious belief and any cult, or the man in the psychiatric hospital who claims to have had visions of god and performed miracles.

This is no different than the Greeks and Romans who worshipped their deities yet now humankind scoffs at such religions.

technically, Birch, Christ did exist, there are records of him being a historical figure and most historians don't debate that. but anyway, i don't know where in the bible it says anything about the stars being created only for direction and all that. it may say that they provide direction somewhere in the bible but i don't know of any scripture that negates the possibility of alien life. i think that is just another narrow minded and self serving interpretation of the bible that not all Christians subscribe to. i, personally, don't believe that the creator would waste all of that space. i also know that creation itself is a lot more tenacious and abundant than some people give it credit for. life is everywhere we just don't always recognize it.

Where/what are these records?

well, there were roman scholars that wrote about christ and christians, like josephus and tacitus and some others that i can't remember. there are also cross references in the talmud and islamic texts. most scholars also accept the historicity of gospel texts both in the bible and the apocrypha (not in the bible) whether they subscribe to the theology of them or not. the bible is in fact considered a good historical reference and historically accurate in most cases where it is dealing with events and not theology. i took a course in university that was actually called "historical jesus" and was taught in that course that most scholars at this time accept the fact that jesus was a real historical figure and scholars that debate the fact are now in the minority.

* just to add some other non-christian references to christ, suetonius, pliny the younger, thallus and of course, references to a report pontius pilate made on the crucifixion to tiberius (the emperor of rome at that time.)

(*edited cuz i can't spell)

Wellllllll....

I disagree.

While the Bible and other theological resources may be accurate in regards to historical information, that does not mean that they are accurate in recounting the events of the life of a man named Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is a great piece of historical fiction.

I also do not think it's accurate and good research to use the Bible to prove what happened in the Bible, so I rule that out as a resource.

Now, why were the apocrypha not included in the Bible?

Because their authenticity was doubted. Such as the Book of Judith, now believed to be a parable; or the book of Tobit, which is now regarded as a religious novel with historical elements (otherwise known as historical fiction). Or the Act of Pilate (I think I got that right) in which it was said that Jesus' virginal birth was doubtful, as his parents fornicated. So by the admission of the very people who believe in Jesus the biblical apocrypha were inaccurate, so I rule those out as a resource in general. I of course admit I don't know every detail about every book.

Now I also admit I know very little about the Talmud and other religious texts and their references to Jesus. I will look into that.

Hoooweeeever...

Let us look at Pliny the Younger, whose dates are what, 60-100 or something? He did not report the existence of Christ, but the existence of those who worshipped Christ.

Thallus' work has been lost. There are no primary resources on his writings.

The document by Pilate has also been lost. It was referenced by Justin Martyr, who lived a hundred years after Christ's alleged life and interestingly enough is a Christian apologist, so that is not using gnostic resources and once again is ruled out.

And on and on and on...

I'm sorry, I did not mean to hijack this thread and it is a good thread; can someone please break it off at the appropriate point and retitle "Did Jesus Exist" or something?

Thank ye!

Done and done

People who "know" me on these forums may be surprised, but I do actually believe a man named Jesus may have existed and did spread the good words he spread. I don't think he was the son of god or a savior or anything like that; but he was a good man. I believe the stories about him have been greatly exaggerated in his honor and to help spread his message further. I regret he died because of his words.

so can we start one about mohammed and buddha too? i don't know that this post is going to get anywhere productive when the only two logical arguments have already been made and you either accept them or you don't.

I am a christian and I do believe that Christ Jesus was the son of God and that he died on the cross to save us all. The bible says that they only way to God is through his son Jesus so if you do not believe in him you have no community with God himself as the only person on the earth that was ever perfect and never gave in to satan or temptation was Jesus even in his younger years. The bible also says he started teaching the word of God by the time he Was twelve.
1. lets tackle the light thing: in Genesis 1 it says that God created the heavens and the earth, water,animals, sea creatures, birds, trees plants and so on. God created day and night it states in Genesis 1:3-5 God said "let there be light" and there was light. He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day" and the darkness "night" and that was the first day. now for the stars Genesis 1:14-30 God said " let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separte the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth. God made 2 great lights-the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
The bible states that God created the earth in 7 days 6 days he worked and on the 7th he rested. I wonder hey, our week is 7 days to monday to friday being the main days to get anything done then saturday for shopping and other errands and sunday most people rest they sleep late, go out, have brunch, go to church, and nost people get this day off. Before anyone gets mad I said MOST.
There are copies of the orginal bible in the britsh museum for all to see. Even the Karon says that Jesus was alive and a real person. MOst relegions believe christ died and was buried and the rose again on the third day. I mean do you not celiberate easter? Christmas? These are christian holidays. Christmas is the day Jesus was born. Easter is when he died on the cross for our sins.
If you need further proof I will get my husband to explain this to you all as I am not as good with words as he is and his knowledge of the bible is much greater than mine.
Taykare

I believe Jesus did exist,, We never seen Abraham Lincoln but history say he existed and we beleive and there are records just like Abraham Lincoln of the man called Jesus. If you believe he is in God! "Son of God" that is another thought. That would come into the believing "faith factor" But the man named Jesus, I think did exist.
My personal thoughts are he must have been a good man. Because of all the good witten about him..

jesus
yes

god?
...not so much

i believe jesus existed
he was a nice person who obviously helped alot of people and "claimed" to be the son of this "god"
however ido not believe god existed/ created the earth or humans or any of that

im sure jesus was a nice person and liked to help people and all

I think its possible that he exists. I don't believe in all of the religon because thats not proven etc. Nor his his birth I don't know.

I think Jesus Christ existed, but he wasn't the son of God.

Why do you think Jesus Christ? Perhaps it was a fairy tale? Theres not a whole lot of proof and it certainly doesn't sound realistic. IF he really did exist I don't think all of the stories were true. I don't think he walked on water and that sort of stuff, but it's possible.. I don't know. I think it's like believing in the easter bunny, santa claus, and the tooth fairy and that just for kids.. Perhaps they had to make something up for adults to keep us in line. IE if you're bad santa isn't coming to our house OR if your bad when you're older you don't really care about santa anymore. So, now the belief is that you will go to hell.. LOL I don't know.. I like debates I should stick to this forum

I think he existed in the same sense John Lennon did, like Ghandi did, like Mother Theresa did. He was someone who did important things-maybe the stories about his "powers" are wildly exaggerated, but to me he was just another person that believed in peace, love, and empathy, and he was punished for it.

I do not believe he was the son of God because I think it is very silly to believe virgins can get pregnant. I think Mary and Joseph were getting it on like every other young couple and left their home so they could lie about the conception.

There is no proof that Jesus existed. I currently do not believe he even existed as a historical figure, but I am not shut out to it. He may have been an ordinary man how had all this afixed to him, or the world's first documented schizophrenic.

As a figure in astronomy, the "sun" "the light of the world" who is resurrected after three days (dec. 25th, after the sun is stationary for three days after the winter solstice), after traveling for one year with twelve disciples (twelve zodiac symbols) Jesus may have existed. Sure.

Oooh, that's cool Birch Yes, I think that it was either one man, or more likely, a group of people over time who's ideas slowly became collected into the concept known as "Jesus Christ". The story that has come out of this is honestly breath taking. It's exciting, adventurous, and full of great characters, morals, and concepts we can all learn from a bit and live by. I love it. Do I believe the religion? No.

on wife swap i heard that jesus was a carpenter that talked to much