Human being is not a biological term. No one is arguing that a human fetus is not "human", in terms of what species it is. But I can't understand on what basis you could claim that the undifferentiated cells of a zygote or the shrimp-like embryo are equivalent to a fully-formed individual of the species homo sapiens. A newly-born kitten or a day-old chick are "beings" of much greater value and importance than a 16 day old cluster of human cells.

ok, it is frustraiting but i must go back to basic knowlege fundemental eduction for children of 5.

I am not saying a z,e,f is the "equivelent" of a fully developed human being, I am not saying that at all.

You recognise a a fetus as "human" in that it is human in species...thank goodness.

now "being" on means in existanceand I know you believe a z,e,f to be human and in existance because you said so in previous post if it didnt exist there would be no reason for an abortion. The z,e,f is alive...i.e it is growing and developing... we know that, we also know it is not part of the mother..... it is a human in existance, a human being.

I just want you to clarify something

" A newly-born kitten or a day-old chick are "beings" of much greater value and importance than a 16 day old cluster of human cells. "

Why?

Why 16 days why not 17 or 15?

Why not some other point in their development,..,., why 16 days?

Please don't be patronising -- it's really silly coming from someone with poor spelling! But I digress...16 days was an entirely random number -- pick any amount of time you like -- until it can survive on its own in the big wide world, it's just a fetus.

I do not regard a zygote, an embryo or a fetus as a "being" -- it's not a biologically precise term in any case, but in my view something that is not an independent creature doesn't get any individual recognition. It's like...yeast maybe. Define what a "being" is -- of any species. "Existence" isn't the criterion, or would you say that a rhododendron is a "being"? A table? A corpse? What characterises a "being" from your point of view and why is it important?

a table is a being.... an inanimate being

A flower is a being also

If aliens are beings, so are fetuses. They are human. They are there...they "be".

Fetuses are developing human beings.

thanks birch, but your sentance can get misconstrude

better to fetuses are human beings developing

It appears you are only going by what the unborn human looks like.

Humans differ in each stage of life. Of course an embryo or fetus is very different than us. But, a newborn is very different from adults, too!

Excellent. But there is still no reason that this human thing can be allowed to remain inside a fully sentient human person against her will.

Human thing?

Sorry. That should have been Thing

Yes... A human thing, you know like going red after farting in public, cutting our privit to look like animals. you know its a human thing!

No doubt abortion is NOT, good sexual restraint a virtue, but in some circumstances abortion maybe the LESSER of two evils and the Mother is the best judge of when abortion may be the lesser of the two evils.
CASE 1)If the family already has 2 or more children and can not pay for the education or medical care of an unplanned for child and can not give the time and attention to another child to prevent it from slipping into evil ways and becoming a drug addict and dangerous gang member.(now days many parents prefer home schooling because the chances of a child joining a gang or becoming a drug addict or criminal are so high) If the mother has an unplanned child she may not be able to properly raise ANY of her children and all three may turn out to be a liability to society rather than an asset. All mothers want their children to be assets to society not crimminals.The mother is the best judge of how many children she can give necesssary love and attention to.Why endanger the planned children's future for the sake of an unplanned children?
Case two 2)An unmarried woman is a criminal and drug addict and is in the society of drug addicts. This woman does not want or love the child and the child if allowed to grow up on the street it would likely jion a gang ,or get into drugs or pornography and possibly influence other children to do the same and wind up costing society alot of tax dollars by being award of state in prison.Again the Mother is the best judge of wether she would raise the child and what kind of chances it would have.

Yes Abortion is EVIL but we live in a world where we have to be very careful that we do NOT choose an even greater evil. God is love and God would give the soul of a fetus who had been aborted another chance in the womb of a mother who would love and raise the Child to love and serve God a(also the population of the world will double by 2050!! then there would not be enough trees so many more would have to be cut! Isnt the planet deforested as it is? Which is the LESSER evil?

What the child may or may not grow up to be is not an issue in abortion because neither of us has a crystal ball.

Abortion isn't an 'evil'. It's a medical procedure.

Yes, a medical procedure that kills an unborn human. There are no other medical procedure that intentionally kills human life.

A tumor is human life, so surgery to remove it kills human life.

Been reading this convo for awhile

According to philosophy, religion is inferior to philosophy.

Philosophy is in regard to thinking, befriending independant thought and therefore religion cant necessarily belong in that equation(there are some exceptions.) Religions sees the world in black and white, in regards to philosophy you try to be empathetic or push yourself beyond the normal limits of thought/wisdom.

Philosophy regards the z/e/f as almost nothing... due to the lack of a concsious, which is required to be a philosopher

Part of the convo between Socrates and diotima, in regards to humans.

She said to Socrates that men want immortality(People want what they can't have) and therefore it is obtained through generation. She said that men love not what is their own but of what belongs to other people.
*******
Okay my turn

Men want what they can't have, nowhere did it say sex had to be pro-creational, it also explained how people dont explore themselves and try to find other answers.... there were also other parts of the convo taht held to believe that quality of life is more important, that you should care for what is here and not a potential....

I LOVE PHILOSOPHY!!

No, it kills something that COMES from a human life. A fetus is not a body part, limb, organ, or something mutated from something. A fetus has it OWN body. Nice try. Stop being in denial about the fact that we all used to be a fetus.

You can't have it both ways. If it has iots own body, then it can just bloody well get out there and earn its own living.

Funny an egg is produced by our body, it is released and then if the conditions are right, it attaches itself to our uterus, once impanted the cord takes nutrients from the uterus and provides the fertilized egg its substance for growth.

I would like to know how that doesnt sound like a tumour or even worse, no offence...

We all had our own body in the womb, but we needed to be connected to our mother to receive our nutrients and oxygen because at that stage, we were just starting out and we were too vulnerable and new. It's only logical that we needed to be in a place like a womb.