And what if I decided to show the same quote of a PRO-LIFER over and over and over... Would that ONE quote prove that I am right?

Human as a noun and "human being" are interchangeable. They always mean the same thing. I'm a human, but I don't have to say human BEING because it's understood (but only if I'm using human as a noun.)

How is a fetus A developing human but not a developing human being?

When it's unborn. When it's born, it is legally a person.

i thought this is an abortion debate not a legal debate.the purpose of which to discuss the moral implications of abortion?. if this were a slavery debate would you keep repeating to us: but slavery is legal, but slavery is legal, adnausium?

I think in philosophical terms, a fetus would not be considered "human". There is quite a lot of writing on what it means to be human, and what distinguishes humans from animals. Philosophers don't have much time for anythign pre-sentient.

In that case, newborns wouldn't be considered human either because humans are known to walk upright and are known to have the ability to reason. Newborns cannot do any of that. Oh, and people with certain disablilities.

We are animals by the way.

You are correct. Which is why you need to define exactly in which sphere you are meandering when you ask when something can be considered "human". Legal is one, philosophical is another, biological is another.

" think in philosophical terms, a fetus would not be considered "human".

Ooppoopo, is correct on this one depending upon the philosophy you follow of course... there are philosophies out there that do see a fetus as a human being most religious phiolsophies do, I know for a certain fact Christian philosophy does as it implys a soul, where as those philiosphies that do not consider a fetus a human being tend to consider thought process and self awareness to be a human being etc.

But a human being is not just defined by a though process, i,e I think therefore I am. A human being is not just a soul either, a human being in our most fundemental selves is our body, our physical make up

so philosophy here must in all logic take a back seat to scientific and biological understanding.

Biologically without doubt a fetus is a living existing human being.

a person may say I agree a fetus is a human being biologically speaking but I dont believe it is a human being in the philisophical sense because the fetus cant think for his/herself and therefore not a human being in the same sense as an adult.

I agree with this statement!!!

However where I differ is when a person says that because this human being is not like other human beings then it should not have the right to life... human rights is for all human beings... not just some.

First, religion is not the same as philosophy.

Second, you are wrong in your claim that it is "without doubt" that a fetus is biologically a living, existing human being.

"First, religion is not the same as philosophy"

But there are philosophies that reslut from religious beliefs.

"Second, you are wrong in your claim that it is "without doubt" that a fetus is biologically a living, existing human being."

It is not a matter of taste or opinion, it is a biological FACT that at the moment of conception fertalisation a NEW and DISTINCT, UNIQUE individual comes into existance.... even pro choice biologists agree on this.

Okay. You need to believe that, and we will never agree I guess.

But there is no way on earth you can convince a rational person that a 7 day old cluster of cells is a living, existing human being. Yes, it "exists" (which is why it might need to be aborted). But does it "live" -- debatable. Is it a human being -- pretty clearly, no.

Opopopop, a rational person would either take the word of experts in the feild of biology or else learn biology to prove otherwise, since it is biology that makes this claim and not I.

Although I did very well with biology I am far from being a biologist, so I take it that a fetus is a living human being on the authority of experts in that field, and in particular that feild within biology that deals with human life.

If it is not a human being biologically speaking what is it, a canine, a bovine?

please remember I am not talking what makes a human being a human being philospohicaly but biologicaly

Just do a little research please from those in the correct field within biology

Biologically, it is a HUMAN FETUS. Not a "being". Any biology or anatomy/physiology book will tell you that. No one is stating that a human fetus is a bovine fetus or a canine fetus. It is human but to me and many others, it is not a "being" until it can live on its own with out the help of its mother's body feeding it, exchanging oxygen for it, and removing waste for it. I am not saying that it is not a human being until it can think and do whatever a human adult can do. I am saying that until it no longer depends on its mother for simple exchanges on the cellular level (i.e. oxygen, waste transfer, and nutrients on a basement level)it is not a human being. A newborn baby is a human being. It no longer requires that cellular nourishment, it has self awareness, it has legal rights, it has autonomy, it can cry out in pain, cry out in hunger, cry out in discomfort. A preterm baby (if past the 21 week mark...I may be off by a week or two...medical advances) is a human being. It may not be able to breathe on its own but it is legally protected, it can show signs (although underdeveloped) of discomfort, pain, and hunger, it can live without the basic cellular needs that its mother provides. A person on full life support is a human being, because before that tradgedy that fell them, they were capable of all of the above already mentioned.

"Human being" is not a biological term.

Because human being and person can also be interchangeable. So how can you call something that you do not believe to be a person a human being? See there is more than one way to look at it. In my opinion because a human fetus cannot be a person, it cannot be a human being. It can be a human fetus but not a "being". In my opinion in order to be a human being, you must first be able to establish self-awareness, autonomy, sentience, emotion, feeling (and not at a primal or instinctual level), thought process, etc. You can argue this point all day with me. I will stick to my opinion, you stick to yours.

[quote="phlem]and don't most people agree that jews are human just not human beings?[/quote]

Who here has said that? Jews or Jewish people, as I would like to think they would rather be referred to, are a religious sect. It disgusts me that you would try to dehumanize an entire religion by lowering them from human beings to just human. They are established, live, thinking, feeling, rationalizing, choosing persons. I find it sad that you have to pick at so many straws to make a point. Stop bringing religious sects, Hitler, soldiers, the draft, the wars, slavery into the abortion debate forum. None of the above topics are about abortion.

"it is a HUMAN FETUS"

And I am a human ADULT not a Human Being?

Zygote, Embryo, Fetus, Baby, Infant, Child, Adolesant, Adult

all of these refer to a stage of development of a human being.


"but to me and many others, it is not a "being" until it can live on its own with out the help of its mother's body feeding it,"

Being in the sense of "human being" simply means to Exist.

Are you saying it doesnt exist, if it doesnt exist then why get an abortion?

"In my opinion in order to be a human being, you must first be able to establish self-awareness, autonomy, sentience, emotion, feeling (and not at a primal or instinctual level), thought process, etc"

But your basing your ethics on a philosophical idea/ideal and not biological/scientific fact.

"can argue this point all day with me. I will stick to my opinion, you stick to yours."

I am not arguing anything with you, I never addressed you, you took it upon yourself to address my posts, if your not willing to have an open and honest discussion you could have said "I disagree" and left it at that. which is basically where you leave your last post.

Your entitled to your opinion, your idealism, but it is not based on biological fact. So needless to say I am also going to leave it here because there is no point in talking about this with you.

So


I disagree.

So what if I am basing my opinions on philosophical ideals? Some base their opinions on laws, others religion...doesn't make any of us more right or wrong. And what I meant by arguing is simply disagreeing. To argue can mean to disagree as well. Your opinion and idealism is also not based on biological fact. Nowhere in any biology book, physiology book, anatomy book, does it say that a human fetus is a human being.

To Argue is to make a point, it is an argument, it has a premise and a conclusion

If you just want to disagree, then why not just say "I disagree"

"So what if I am basing my opinions on philosophical ideals? Some base their opinions on laws, others religion...doesn't make any of us more right or wrong"

when certain religious men and women held the opinion the world was flat..... where they as equally right as those who said it was a sphere?

a person can hold religious views or philisophical views etc but when it comes down to natural things only science can determin the true nature of things.

I may hold certain ideas about new york and so may you, but my ideas can be less or more right than yours simply because New York actually exists.... and this clump of cells actually exists and so one idea can be more correct than another.

"Nowhere in any biology book, physiology book, anatomy book, does it say that a human fetus is a human being."

have you read every one?

I know I have read at least one where it says it.

Human being is not a biological term. No one is arguing that a human fetus is not "human", in terms of what species it is. But I can't understand on what basis you could claim that the undifferentiated cells of a zygote or the shrimp-like embryo are equivalent to a fully-formed individual of the species homo sapiens. A newly-born kitten or a day-old chick are "beings" of much greater value and importance than a 16 day old cluster of human cells.