Abortion Debate Forum - Science proves a fetus is a child not a glob of cells

Milan

replied on February 6th, 2009

Experienced User

Re: Let's remember what's being done here...

pooldadct wrote:

For years we've all been told that the "fetus" is a glob of cells. Science proves that it is a child.

That's not true.www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Chi ld defines a child as a young person, typically between 6 and 12 years old. The single biggest problem with the abortion debate is that some people don't know the definitions of very basic words, like baby, person, human VS. human being, parasite, etc.

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From weeks early on it's a child with fingers & toes

Not true. It is only a potential child. Big difference.

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There are no such things as "unwanted" pregnancies.

Not true, and very narrow-minded. You do not know how ever single person on this planet feels about pregnancy, as you have not walked in ever single persons shoes.

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Jules

replied on February 7th, 2009

Extremely eHealthy

Pooldad, I moved your post from Abortion Pro Choice because only pro choice posts are allowed there.

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msrosie

replied on February 7th, 2009

Experienced User

Re: Let's remember what's being done here...

pooldadct wrote:

Millions of couples are waiting for a child.

Tough. I am not a broodmare for the barren. I am not putting MY body through the trauma of gestation and childbirth just so some barren couple that refuses to adopt an older/disabled and/or non white child can have a healthy, lily white baby.

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Users who thank msrosie for this post: DamianaRaven Moo

piqued

replied on February 13th, 2009

New User

msrosie replied on February 7th, 2009
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Tough. I am not a broodmare for the barren. I am not putting MY body through the trauma of gestation and childbirth just so some barren couple that refuses to adopt an older/disabled and/or non white child can have a healthy, lily white baby.

so you'd rather abort the lily white baby because it is too uncomfortable for you?

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Users who thank piqued for this post: diamondsz

oopoopoop

replied on February 13th, 2009

Extremely eHealthy

piqued wrote:

msrosie replied on February 7th, 2009
Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Tough. I am not a broodmare for the barren. I am not putting MY body through the trauma of gestation and childbirth just so some barren couple that refuses to adopt an older/disabled and/or non white child can have a healthy, lily white baby.

so you'd rather abort the lily white baby because it is too uncomfortable for you?

You are mistaken. One is aborting a beige-andf-red embryo or fetus, not a lily-white baby.

Personally, I would much rather abort a fetus that incubate a baby for someone who thinks their life has no meaning without a sprog.

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motherofhighspiritedones

replied on February 15th, 2009

Moderator

Re: Let's remember what's being done here...

pooldadct wrote:

For years we've all been told that the "fetus" (I like to call it what it is, an unborn child) is a glob of cells. Science proves that it is a child. From weeks early on it's a child with fingers & toes & its very own heart. In fact, it has its own DNA. The fetus is a unique individual that happens to be growing in its mother's womb. Depending on its mother for nutrition & life itself.

My 20 year old is the product of a teenage "romance" that almost ended up in abortion. Thankfully, that courageous young lady was truly pro-choice & carried that child to term & then courageously gave the baby up to adoption - by my wife & I. That baby is our oldest daughter. She was never considered just a fetus or an "un-wanted" pregnancy. She has had her ups & downs in life, but she is beyond thankful that she lives. Millions of couples are waiting for a child. There are no such things as "unwanted" pregnancies. If we were 25 years younger, yes, we would gladly take one of those babies.

Okay first off, your daughter is only thankful she lives because she knows what LIVING is. She has experiences. An embryo/fetus has no sentience, has no experiences. It has no knowledge of existence, no self-awareness. It survives on mere instinct. Good on the birth mother for being able to emotionally give a child to you. But you need to understand that not every woman has the emotional bearings that that particular girl did. Not every woman can emotionally handle the biological bonding between fetus and woman and then just hand over that bond to someone else. Call it selfish, call it what you will. I call it maternal hardwire. And some maternal hardwire is impossible to shut down. I do not believe any woman should be forced to carry a fetus full term, go through labor and delivery in hopes of someone out there willing to adopt that newborn. I was adopted after 5 long years of being in the foster system. Why? I am lily white, blonde hair blue eyes, pretty physically okay. But no, I have emotional baggage left from experiences no child should have to go through. It was hard for any agency to place me or my siblings into a permanent home due to that. Took 5 years. Same goes with children with disabilites or of a different race. Potential parents want undamaged, unmarred goods. I know this firsthand. It is fine with me, I got adopted, but my adoption experience has not been typical either. There are some secrets even too dark for me to expose. My point is, no one should have to carry a child to term for someone else...unless they want to. That is what pro choice is truly about...promoting EACH choice, be it adoption, parenting, abortion. Not just abortion. So lets remember what IS being done here: sometimes it is preventing a potential abuse case, sometimes it is preventing a miserable, 2 day life due to birth defects, sometimes it is saving a woman's life, who would have died trying to sustain the very fetus she is carrying, sometimes it is done to alleviate rape victims from suffering further, same with incest. Sometimes it is done to prevent social/economic problems. Yeah, I know, to you that may seem evil. But to the woman that has to go through life with that extra baggage or to the potential suffering of an unwanted child, it is the lesser of two evils. My point is, I don't see everything in black and white like so many others do. I know how hard it can be to even think about adopting a child out. I know how hard it is to sit and wait, hoping some family out there wants you, despite your marring, scarring, emotional troubles. I know how hard it is to get an adoptive family, knowing that you are little more than a tax benefit to this family. I know how hard it is to have to watch someone do the most selfless thing by aborting due to birth defects so severe the potential child would not even live to take its first breath. I know how selfish it can be to want to adopt. I know the trauma of rape. I am lucky to not have the trauma of being an imprengated rape victim.
So for those who don't know my story, or only know bits and pieces, simply put, I am an abuse survivor. I grew up in the foster system, I have seen that not every foster family wants a child to love. I was adopted by a family who couldn't emotionally handle children with trust issues and emotional complications due to losing their innocence. This family sent me to live in a group home until I was 11. They used all of the trust fund that they had for me and my sister to buy horses. They paid more attention to these horses. They left me and my sister to mainly grow up on our own. They were good people though, just had bad intentions. They taught us everything we needed to know, but only out of necessity. I got pregnant at 17 by a childhood friend that became a boyfriend my freshman year in high school, and is now my husband. I used birth control but at the time no one knew about the potential side effects that antibiotics might have on that particular pill, as it was a newer pill. My parents were disappointed. It devastated my mother, who had never been able to have children of her own. She became cold and distant and often irrational. There was a time she kicked me out during my pregnancy because I had thrown up on the toilet and missed a spot while cleaning. She called various adoption agencies, told my now husband's mother that I was never on birth control (even though, she herself made the appointments religiously), and shunned me out of her life. These adoption agencies told her I was of the age to make my own decision. But she didn't listen. She solicited people, women from the highschool I went to and where she worked at. These women would come to me, begging me for the chance to parent a child. That put undue strain on me. I was already confused. I never thought about abortion as it was not ever made an available option. I knew very little of it and was 4 months along before DH's mother brought it up and suggested that I have one. By that time, I was too far along and really didn't want to go that route anyway. It is not because I am against it, not because someone said it was wrong to do, not because I could never do it. It is simply because at the time, it was not an option. Would I do it if I had a chance to go back in time? No, but not because it is wrong. But because it is an option for those who REALLY need to have it as an option. I was not a desperate woman in need of an abortion due to financial situations. I was not a rape victim. My life was not in danger due to physical problems or an abusive relationship. I was not a woman who swore off having kids. My fetus was seemingly healthy. These are all reasons (plus many more) that people choose to abort. And they are valid reasons. But I had no reason. I had a stable job, had graduated early, had my own place and was emotionally ready to parent. I knew the risks involved and fully understood the consequences. I knew adoption was definitly the wrong answer for me, not just because of my own experiences with the system, but because of the way a woman can act when she is all-hormones and really wanting a child. These women were CRAZY with greed and want. There is nothing scarier than a woman coming up to a pregnant teen and promising the world to a potential child she has yet to see, yet to hold, yet to do anything with. I felt, I saw, I CARRIED this potential child. I had bonded. And some bonds you cannot break. I knew that I could provide to my child what no other woman could. No other woman could love my potential child the way I did. I had been through hell and back while pregnant and it only made my love stronger. I went through emotional heartbreak after emotional heartbreak while pregnant. My mother, shunning me. My father, doing nothing to support me, too busy hiding his own dark secrets from my mother. Yes, I had their support in some ways. I was never outcasted per se. But then again, I never felt loved. They supported me finishing high school early, helped me secure a great job, but that is where the support ended. I paid for myself. I paid for my own college. I was alone. My mother, she went sofar as to do something no mother should ever do. She went to my husband's mom and accused me of entrapping him due to my need to feel secure. That was not the case and my husband called her on it. But needless to say, DH wasn't allowed to see me for awhile. His mom called me names, but only to justify herself and make her feel better. I know this because she had my husband only six months after I had my first son. Now, some of you will say, but Mother, you said your parents supported your decision. This is true. Outwardly. They did support me, never told me to do one thing or another. But my mother, because of what I believe was jealousy, because she never could carry a baby, she did try to force adoption on me. I never made promises to those women that wanted so badly to have my child as their own. No matter how crazy they got. It just made them look bad. I had my son. And kept him. Not because I couldn't imagine life without him, but because of the best reason of all...I wanted what was best for him. Despite being a teen mom, I provided well for him, he has always had what he needs to survive, including all the love and support and encouragement he needs. My mother said that statistically, I would be an abuser myself because of the abuse I sustained. Well, statistics are numbers. I am a person. I broke the cycle. I know what it is like to look into the face of someone you love so unconditionally and wonder why they are HURTING you. I vowed to never, ever let my children experience that kind of wonder and pain. I have aborted as well. But for medical reasons. Ectopic pregnancies. So yeah, I guess I aborted a "lily-white baby" because it became too uncomfortable for me. And I do agree with mrsrosie and oop...no woman should have to gestate and give birth to satisfy some other woman's maternal needs. Gestation and childbirth can be a piece of cake, but it always leaves a forkmark or two in the icing. Stretch marks, prolapsed bladder or uterus, cramps, sagging breasts, lower back pain, stitches...they are not for everyone. I respect each individual's decision and would never force birth or abortion upon anyone. Both are equally bad. I also tend to agree about the white healthy baby complex. I was white and healthy but older. Adoption did not happen for me as quickly because I was considered damaged. So are a lot of other kids. Its not right to force a woman to give birth because you want that baby instead of the five year old black boy or the 8 year old with cerebal palsy. That is disgusting. I also know that abortion is not an easy decision. So don't make it to be the easy way out. I know three different women (maybe 4)who have had abortions, and their decisions were NOT at all easy. My sister had to abort an ancephalic/acardic fetus. This fetus had no heart or brain. What kind of life do you think it would have had? Oh wait, that's right...no heart or brain, no life. My teenage cousin aborted a fetus because it was the product of rape. She is not the kind of girl who can emotionally stand adopting out nor could she face the product of her rape every day. The third (and fourth...cannot remember really what happened with her whole situation)is my best friend who just got out of a bad marriage. She needed an abortion so she could provide for her other two children in a sufficient way. I don't look down on any of these women. They did what they had to do. And to those women out there who never want kids, I support you too. I know how hard it is to convince a doctor that you never want kids and want a tubal. I know because I had hell trying to get a tubal myself. I told the doctor after my daugher was born that I was afraid my babies would keep coming earlier and earlier and was shunned by them until my son, who passed away 5 months after birth, was born at 24 weeks. Then, and only then, did a doctor listen. I am only 26. So I cannot imagine how hard it is for those of you who are 22 (or older or younger...you get my point), who know in your heart of hearts, that children are not for you, yet no doctor will listen. They say you must want kids someday, that you will change your mind, to wait until you are married, to wait until you have one kid. As if you don't have a brain or emotions or standards of how you want to live your life. They see you as a life support system for a uterus. It is sad. Well, enough of my rambling.
PS. Pooldadct-The fish or cow or chicken you were eating also had a beating heart.

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DamianaRaven

replied on February 28th, 2009

Experienced User

Re: Let's remember what's being done here...

msrosie wrote:

Tough. I am not a broodmare for the barren. I am not putting MY body through the trauma of gestation and childbirth just so some barren couple that refuses to adopt an older/disabled and/or non white child can have a healthy, lily white baby.

BAM! Wonderful retort - thank you for posting it. You hear a lot in these debates about the millions of couples out there just pining away for a baby and it has occurred to me to question why they won't take any of the thousands (or millions?) of needy children out there? I posted at length about it in another thread here. Kudos to you!

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Users who thank DamianaRaven for this post: GreyWolf

msrosie

replied on February 28th, 2009

Experienced User

piqued wrote:

so you'd rather abort the lily white baby because it is too uncomfortable for you?

Pregnancy is way more than just "uncomfortable", especially when you have multiple serious health issues, then there's childbirth, which is no walk in the park. Yes, I would rather abort than go through gestation and childbirth. This bod will never, EVER birth.

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msrosie

replied on February 28th, 2009

Experienced User

Re: Let's remember what's being done here...

[quote="DamianaRaven"
BAM! Wonderful retort - thank you for posting it. You hear a lot in these debates about the millions of couples out there just pining away for a baby and it has occurred to me to question why they won't take any of the thousands (or millions?) of needy children out there? I posted at length about it in another thread here. Kudos to you![/quote]

Thanks, and I totally agree. There's a saying that "beggars can't be choosers", I would think that someone so desperate to have a child would take any one needing a loving, stable home.

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GreyWolf

replied on March 17th, 2009

Experienced User

Re: Let's remember what's being done here...

DamianaRaven wrote:

msrosie wrote:

Tough. I am not a broodmare for the barren. I am not putting MY body through the trauma of gestation and childbirth just so some barren couple that refuses to adopt an older/disabled and/or non white child can have a healthy, lily white baby.

BAM! Wonderful retort - thank you for posting it. You hear a lot in these debates about the millions of couples out there just pining away for a baby and it has occurred to me to question why they won't take any of the thousands (or millions?) of needy children out there? I posted at length about it in another thread here. Kudos to you!

Hear hear!

"There is no such thing as an unwanted pregnancy." If a woman gets pregnant, and she doesn't want to be pregnant, this is an unwanted pregnancy. The only people I can see wanting her to remain pregnant are a couple looking to adopt a child. And they have no right to want her to remain pregnant. She is not an incubator for "their" child, she is a living breathing human being.

And yes, I agree, if so many people are desperate for a child then why are there so many children in adoption centres waiting for a loving family? Why don't these desperate couples search in these places first and give one of these children a chance at a happy family, instead of setting their hopes on an unborn foetus which might not even survive to term?

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nightangel73

replied on March 18th, 2009

Extremely eHealthy

Abortion is wrong..it's killing a human life

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DamianaRaven

replied on March 19th, 2009

Experienced User

Having children when you don't want to (or can't) is also wrong. That trashes TWO lives instead of one. A life ended is tragic but in my opinion it's less so than a life going on and on for years in misery, poverty, abuse, and all those other side effects of overpopulation.

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motherofhighspiritedones

replied on March 19th, 2009

Moderator

nightangel73 wrote:

Abortion is wrong..it's killing a human life

Abortion cannot be right nor wrong. It is a concept based on morals. Morals differ. So don't be so quick to waggle the finger. Taken directly from Diamondz (and TY Dia, one of the best ways I have ever heard the abortion/parenting debate put)"Just as parenting is a selfish decision, so is abortion, so neither can be wrong nor right"

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NeutralUsername

replied on March 19th, 2009

Active User, very eHealthy

DamianaRaven wrote:

Having children when you don't want to (or can't) is also wrong. That trashes TWO lives instead of one. A life ended is tragic but in my opinion it's less so than a life going on and on for years in misery, poverty, abuse, and all those other side effects of overpopulation.

But, most pro-lifers think that once a woman is pregnant, she is carrying her child. To most pro-lifers, it wouldn't make since to say it's okay to kill your unborn offspring for certain reasons when you can't do the same for your born offspring.

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Milan

replied on March 19th, 2009

Experienced User

nightangel73 wrote:

Abortion is wrong..it's killing a human life

Not true. It is only the killing of potential human life. Big difference.

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LampofLight

replied on March 19th, 2009

New User

Actually, scince can tell if its human. science can tell if it's alive. therefore science can tell if its a human life.

The issue isn't whther or not its a human life. It absolutely IS , and science proves it. The issue is rather over when that human life gets the same right to life as a human life outside of the womb.

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oopoopoop

replied on March 20th, 2009

Extremely eHealthy

LampofLight wrote:

Actually, scince can tell if its human. science can tell if it's alive. therefore science can tell if its a human life.

The issue isn't whther or not its a human life. It absolutely IS , and science proves it. The issue is rather over when that human life gets the same right to life as a human life outside of the womb.

Well put. And quite obviously, the answer has to be "No, it doesn't."

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NeutralUsername

replied on March 20th, 2009

Active User, very eHealthy

Milan wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

Abortion is wrong..it's killing a human life

Not true. It is only the killing of potential human life. Big difference.

Really, then what is it now? How is it a "potential"? How is it NOT human? Does our species change at birth? If it's not a life either, then why does it need nutrients and oxygen?

Please show me a medical book that claims that a fetus is a life-less, non-human, thing. Thanks!

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oopoopoop

replied on March 20th, 2009

Extremely eHealthy

NeutralUsername wrote:

Milan wrote:

nightangel73 wrote:

Abortion is wrong..it's killing a human life

Not true. It is only the killing of potential human life. Big difference.

Really, then what is it now? How is it a "potential"? How is it NOT human? Does our species change at birth? If it's not a life either, then why does it need nutrients and oxygen?

Please show me a medical book that claims that a fetus is a life-less, non-human, thing. Thanks!

You think that it is "alive" as soon as it is conceived. Others see it as "alive" once it can survive as an independent entity, ie detached from the bodily resources of another. My big toe is alive. It is not a human life.

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