Join Our Community!
Share
Debate Forums > Abortion Debate Forum > reproduction in general
Reproductive restriction... yes or no?
YES
NO
50%  50%  [ 2 ]
50%  50%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 4
User Profile
Q: reproduction in general
asked by: DamianaRaven on February 26th, 2009
Experienced User
The following is a passionate rant that I composed in response to a raging debate over the following news article. You can imagine the indignation that followed this ruling, with people everywhere demanding to know who the hell he thinks he is.

Following the story is my response to the avalanche of outrage.

ST. JOSEPH, Mo. (AP) -- A St. Joseph woman who has three children says she was shocked when a judge ordered her not to have any more children out of wedlock while she is on probation for three years.

Mandy Nelson, 26, was given the unusual requirement by Buchanan County Circuit Judge Daniel Kellogg as part of her probation in a forgery case. Other conditions of her probation include community service hours, paying restitution and obtaining a GED or high school diploma.

"I was shocked," Nelson said. "I only have three kids. He made it seem like I was just having kids, kids, kids."

Nelson already was on probation for a prior forgery count. She is alleged to have tried to use $480 in counterfeit money at Commerce Bank in May 2005, according to a St. Joseph Police Department probable-cause statement.

Nelson mentioned in court that she was having financial difficulties because she had three children whose fathers weren't paying child support.

Kellogg said, "My feeling was that would be to help ensure she wouldn't have any more financial difficulties. It's not a moral judgment. It was just to address what were her legitimate concerns. It was more to give her support than to serve as punishment."

Nelson told the judge that she had undergone surgery to close her fallopian tubes after her third son was born two years ago.

But Kellogg replied, "Frankly, nothing is 100 percent."

He compared his action to restitution, which he includes in probation orders even if it has already been paid.

Nelson's mother, Kelly Metcalf, was in the courtroom when the sentence was imposed.

"I was really surprised when he said that," Metcalf said. "I didn't think that was legal. Mandy has always taken care of her kids. It made it look like she was a welfare bum."

The judge's order angered Constance Monroe, who founded Women of Vision Ministries Inc. ofSt. Joseph. It's a non-profit organization that assists women who are either coming out of the correctional system or who are dealing with drug addiction or teen pregnancy.

"We're in what century?" asked Monroe. "That, to me, is a moral statement, not a judicial statement."

The state doesn't track special probation conditions, but "this is extremely rare," explained Brian Hauswirth, spokesman for the Missouri Department of Probation and Parole.

In a case such as Nelson's, an officer would report to the court only if she gave birth to a child out of wedlock, Hauswirth said. The pregnancy by itself wouldn't be in violation.

Laura Hibbs, a Probation and Parole's administrator, noted that defendants could choose a prison sentence rather than probation. Kellogg suspended Nelson's sentence, which would have been four years in the Missouri Department of Corrections.

Presiding Judge Patrick Robb said that the probation condition was uncommon in Buchanan County but that he'd ordered it several times during his career. He found the condition appropriate in some cases, such as for a defendant attending substance abuse programs.

He said he had never seen anyone's probation revoked because they gave birth.


The words "reproductive freedom" are a classic example of a noble concept gone horribly awry. Before I make my point and p*** people off -- which I'm sure I will -- let me say now that I am staunchly pro-choice in matters of abortion, and an avid supporter of women's rights. I don't think there is a single instance in which a woman should be forced to have a child against her will, but I can think of many good reasons to force a woman not to have children.

Americans are obsessed with the notion that procreation is a divine right never to be infringed upon by anyone for any reason. This means that a homeless crack addict should have the inalienable right to bear as many children as biology will allow, and damn the consequences to whatever children are unlucky enough to be conceived under such circumstances. Those eggs shoulda ducked when they saw the sperm coming, so really the impertinent brats brought that misery on themselves, don't you think?

All sarcasm aside, does anyone care about the abject misery in which hundreds of thousands of children are living, simply because no one dares to poke the hornet's nest and question the "reproductive freedom" of irresponsible men and women? I'm not talking about mere poverty -- many a happy child has been raised by loving, responsible parent(s) without two nickels to rub together. In fact, I'd bet that lots of families are brought closer by the lack of material trappings which forces them to (ack!) spend time together instead of retreating to their separate electronic entertainments after a few civil grunts.

No, money is not the issue here, although somebody somewhere will bring up the almighty dollar. (Wait and see.) I'm talking about parents who abuse their children in any of the infinite ways this sacred bond can be profaned. Children are routinely beaten, raped, used as slaves and "cash cows" to manipulate the system, and generally made to feel as if they're worthless. Except for the momentary swell of pity from those who hear of their suffering, they basically are. I mean, really -- who gives a s***? Not the parents, or else a child would think suffering to be nothing more than an early bedtime or loss of TV priveleges. The "system" doesn't care, as evidenced by the appalling state of Child Protective Services and foster care at large. Even the socially conscious only pay lip service, because they're clearly more concerned with the rights of abusers to have as many children as they please. After all, isn't freedom more important than consequence?

The judge at the center of this debate did not take away this woman's right to ever have another child. He merely ordered her to take a three-year vacation from her reproductive frenzy (I think three fatherless children at 26 is very damned excessive.) and perhaps reflect upon the challenges of motherhood. Using her children as an excuse to break the law only adds to my outrage, as now I'm expected to feel sorry for her because she clearly bit off more than she could chew. We should be far more concerned about the children she's having so much trouble supporting. Tubal ligation was an excellent choice, and I commend her for redeeming herself and her children with that decision. I hope she gets the help she needs and turns her life around.

Back to the horse I'm laboriously beating to death here, I think that reproduction is not a right, but a sacred responsibility that (Let's face the ugly truth, folks!) some people are just not ready for and may never be. Some measure should be taken to curtail the breeding of those who have proven themselves to be bad parents. These measures should not be gender-specific, so you feminists can let out that breath you were planning to howl in outrage with. Deadbeat dads should be rounded up and herded to the nearest vasectomy clinic. The procedure will cost the taxpayer much less than even one more child raised by the system. Women with three or more children and no legal means of independently supporting them (with or without a partner's help) should be sterilized. Anyone who abuses a child in an unambiguous way (meaning that more specific harm was caused than a dirty house or the lack of a new Gameboy) should have their parental rights revoked. All of them.

Here's where my idea takes a few hits. "If we allow the government the right to decide who gets to have children, before long they'll start restricting the poor, the stupid, the ugly..." Etc. This is a valid concern, but we shouldn't let the potential for corruption overshadow the protection of the innocent. Should we really disregard perfectly humane and logical concepts because someday, somewhere, somebody might take the idea too far? If that's the case, why do we allow the government to make laws at all?

To me, the issue is not about the adults who squabble over freedom and rights. It's about the children who've been afforded neither to appease the idea of the almighty uterus.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Replies(14)
User Profile
Darkmoon
replied on February 26th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
There was a news report on TV here in Australia about a guy that's "fathered" (and I use that term lightly because I consider "fathering" to be something a man does when he actually RAISES the children he helps create) over a dozen children through over a dozen women, and he's left them all to fend for themselves.

He's probably the worst case of a deadbeat dad I've ever seen but oddly enough, the first thought that popped into my head when I caught some of the news report was the question of why all of these women allowed this loser to go bareback with them?

The guy was average looking at best so I really can't figure out how he convinced so many women to have unprotected sex with him. Sure, everyone can get STD's but women are the ones that risk pregnancy, so why is it still so common for women to neglect protecting themselves? Do they think that they'll somehow make the guy fall in love with them if they get knocked up by him? Do they think they can trap him? Are they just suffering low self-esteem or desperate for male approval?

As someone who is almost paranoid when it comes to defending my body from unwanted pregnancy, I just can't fathom it. I won't even try to understand the motivations of the pig that shot his DNA into every female he could get his grubby hands on...he's little more than an animal. I'm desperately trying to understand these women, though. If it's so difficult to raise these children on their own, why did they all have them? Yes, contraceptives have a failure rate but you can't tell me that ALL of these women he slept with just had bad luck. Unless this guy's sperm comes equipped with power tools or have been bitten by a radioactive spider or something, there's just no way he could have knocked up so many girls unless there was no protection used.

I think males like that need to be sterilized and the women they impregnated should seek counseling. I've known people that specifically target those with low self-esteem so that they can coerce them and use them. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if this deadbeat is one of those men and he used these women's desire for approval to get his jollies without the inconvenience of a condom.

Then again, the women could just be jumping on a bandwagon trying to get money out of him by claiming he's their babydaddy. The report said he only acknowledged responsibility for three of the pregnancies but that's still enough to make him guilty.

I'm so glad I have no delusions concerning my desire or ability to raise offspring.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Avatar
aochriss
replied on February 26th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
I only skimmed your response, but I agree with the amount I read, anyway. The judge didn't even order a 3 year hiatus from having children, just illegitimate children. If she gets married, she can have as many children as soon as she wants. This is a good idea seeing as it would help (though not ensure) her get financial help from the father.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Avatar
aochriss
replied on February 26th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
Darkmoon, not only would I question why the women would have unprotected sex, but why would they continue any pregnancy caused by this loser?
Did you find this post useful?
|
User Profile
diamondsz
replied on February 26th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
I so agree, parenting isn't just a right, its a resposibility that not many of us can deal with, unfortunatly society brainwashed some of them.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Avatar
NeutralUsername
replied on February 26th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
If you're pro-CHOICE, then you should have no problem with women getting pregnant over and over and keeping them, no matter what the reason is. Would you have a problem with a woman getting pregnant over and over and getting abortions everytime? I agree with getting their PARENTAL rights revoked. The children should be taken away. But, you can't be pro-choice AND support forced sterilization or abortions for women who aren't good parents. If things go the way you wish, huge problems would occur. I can give one example: What if the women is somehow accused of abusing her 4 children, she has to be sterilized, then later it is found she was INNOCENT? The woman lost her right to have more children all because of a mistake or false accusation.

Don't call yourself pro-choice. Call yourself pro-choice-for-certain-women.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Avatar
oopoopoop
replied on February 26th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
NeutralUsername wrote:
If you're pro-CHOICE, then you should have no problem with women getting pregnant over and over and keeping them, no matter what the reason is. Would you have a problem with a woman getting pregnant over and over and getting abortions everytime? I agree with getting their PARENTAL rights revoked. The children should be taken away. But, you can't be pro-choice AND support forced sterilization or abortions for women who aren't good parents. If things go the way you wish, huge problems would occur. I can give one example: What if the women is somehow accused of abusing her 4 children, she has to be sterilized, then later it is found she was INNOCENT? The woman lost her right to have more children all because of a mistake or false accusation.

Don't call yourself pro-choice. Call yourself pro-choice-for-certain-women.


Good point NUN -- that's why I will happily call myself pro-abortion, and anti-irresponsible-pregnancy.
Did you find this post useful?
|
User Profile
diamondsz
replied on February 26th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
NeutralUsername wrote:
If you're pro-CHOICE, then you should have no problem with women getting pregnant over and over and keeping them, no matter what the reason is. Would you have a problem with a woman getting pregnant over and over and getting abortions everytime? I agree with getting their PARENTAL rights revoked. The children should be taken away. But, you can't be pro-choice AND support forced sterilization or abortions for women who aren't good parents. If things go the way you wish, huge problems would occur. I can give one example: What if the women is somehow accused of abusing her 4 children, she has to be sterilized, then later it is found she was INNOCENT? The woman lost her right to have more children all because of a mistake or false accusation.

Don't call yourself pro-choice. Call yourself pro-choice-for-certain-women.


Children service can remove your children here if you are unable to support them, they are going after woman who have children on welfare to what they call "cash cows."

Children have basic needs and if those can't be met you shouldn't be having them, they should require a license to have kids! I'm sick of paying my tax dollars to selfish irresponsible woman who get better quality of life than me because it's easier to sit on their rear ends, have sex and then child rear for a paycheck!

If you work, can support you kids, than have as many as you want. This woman committed a crime, why should she be entitled to the same freedoms everyone else is, using her kids to escape a sentence for fraud, I think the punishment was acceptable!
Did you find this post useful?
|
Avatar
aochriss
replied on February 26th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
The hospital that has Octo-moms octuplets won't let her take them home unless she can prove she can care for them.
Did you find this post useful?
|
User Profile
diamondsz
replied on February 26th, 2009
Extremely eHealthy
aochriss wrote:
The hospital that has Octo-moms octuplets won't let her take them home unless she can prove she can care for them.


Thats a good thing, thanks for sharing~! giggle
Did you find this post useful?
|
User Profile
Darkmoon
replied on February 26th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
Who are you addressing in your post, NeutralUserName? I'm curious because I never advocated that women be disallowed from the act of incubation and birth, though I question why some would keep doing it if they can't handle the resulting offspring.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Avatar
NeutralUsername
replied on February 26th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
Darkmoon wrote:
Who are you addressing in your post, NeutralUserName? I'm curious because I never advocated that women be disallowed from the act of incubation and birth, though I question why some would keep doing it if they can't handle the resulting offspring.


I wasn't referring to you, but I do question why you think MEN should be sterilized when it takes TWO for a woman to get pregnant. Men should be allowed to impregnant women just as women are allowed to get pregnant.
Did you find this post useful?
|
User Profile
Darkmoon
replied on February 26th, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
NeutralUsername wrote:
Darkmoon wrote:
Who are you addressing in your post, NeutralUserName? I'm curious because I never advocated that women be disallowed from the act of incubation and birth, though I question why some would keep doing it if they can't handle the resulting offspring.


I wasn't referring to you, but I do question why you think MEN should be sterilized when it takes TWO for a woman to get pregnant. Men should be allowed to impregnant women just as women are allowed to get pregnant.


Because one man can knock up several women and produce several unsupported children. One woman can only produce one baby per year, no matter how many people she has unprotected sex with. I don't believe irresponsible women should be allowed to keep their offspring but compared to the number of unwanted welfare mouths men can create in a year...well, do the math.

I'm not advocating that every pig that has a handful of abandoned kids somewhere should be dragged kicking and screaming for a vasectomy but in extreme cases like above when one guy creates a Duggar-sized litter of children in one year that the taxpayers have to support, someone needs to put their foot down. Imagine for a moment...each year this guy produces a dozen or more children that he won't support and the women he somehow convinces to sleep with his sorry butt are heading for the dole because they can't support these little accidents all on their own. In five years imagine the impact this would have on the economy...now imagine hundreds of guys just like this one, all shooting their sperm wherever they can.

It reminds me a little of a strategy game I used to play called "Black and White". You play a god and you fight for dominance of the human race with other gods. You can choose the good or evil path. To increase your "flock", you assign breeder disciples. The best strategy is to assign MALES, because they can impregnate several women and thus produce massive amounts of offspring to worship you. If you assign females you're basically paddling against the current with a spoon and your tribe will hardly grow at all.

I seriously do think these women that slept with that loser I was speaking of need mental evaluation though. That's too many for it to be just a coincidence.
Did you find this post useful?
|
User Profile
DamianaRaven
replied on February 26th, 2009
Experienced User
NeutralUsername wrote:
I can give one example: What if the women is somehow accused of abusing her 4 children, she has to be sterilized, then later it is found she was INNOCENT? The woman lost her right to have more children all because of a mistake or false accusation.


I don't think that sterilization should be performed the moment someone is ACCUSED of child abuse, but rather once a person is CONVICTED and that conviction is upheld after a reasonable APPEAL process.

I can still say I'm "pro-choice" and I'll even concede that I'm "pro-choice-for-certain-women." The irresponsible choice to keep cranking out baby after baby should be no more respected and protected than the choice to steal cars. Both actions are criminal, in my opinion, but only one is actually illegal.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Users who thank DamianaRaven for this post: Darkmoon  motherofhighspiritedones 
Avatar
NeutralUsername
replied on March 2nd, 2009
Active User, very eHealthy
Darkmoon wrote:
NeutralUsername wrote:
Darkmoon wrote:
Who are you addressing in your post, NeutralUserName? I'm curious because I never advocated that women be disallowed from the act of incubation and birth, though I question why some would keep doing it if they can't handle the resulting offspring.


I wasn't referring to you, but I do question why you think MEN should be sterilized when it takes TWO for a woman to get pregnant. Men should be allowed to impregnant women just as women are allowed to get pregnant.


Because one man can knock up several women and produce several unsupported children. One woman can only produce one baby per year, no matter how many people she has unprotected sex with. I don't believe irresponsible women should be allowed to keep their offspring but compared to the number of unwanted welfare mouths men can create in a year...well, do the math.

I'm not advocating that every pig that has a handful of abandoned kids somewhere should be dragged kicking and screaming for a vasectomy but in extreme cases like above when one guy creates a Duggar-sized litter of children in one year that the taxpayers have to support, someone needs to put their foot down. Imagine for a moment...each year this guy produces a dozen or more children that he won't support and the women he somehow convinces to sleep with his sorry butt are heading for the dole because they can't support these little accidents all on their own. In five years imagine the impact this would have on the economy...now imagine hundreds of guys just like this one, all shooting their sperm wherever they can.

It reminds me a little of a strategy game I used to play called "Black and White". You play a god and you fight for dominance of the human race with other gods. You can choose the good or evil path. To increase your "flock", you assign breeder disciples. The best strategy is to assign MALES, because they can impregnate several women and thus produce massive amounts of offspring to worship you. If you assign females you're basically paddling against the current with a spoon and your tribe will hardly grow at all.

I seriously do think these women that slept with that loser I was speaking of need mental evaluation though. That's too many for it to be just a coincidence.


So, in these cases, you think only the men are responsible? The women don't have to be responsiblie enough to take birth control or tell the guy to wear a condom? Isn't that sexist? I mean, the women CHOOSE to get pregnant. If you think women should have reproductive rights, so should men.
Did you find this post useful?
|
Quick Reply
Search