Pregnant taking Subutex (Page 2)

Caz,

My Dr. also told me that she often increases the dose later in pregnancy of subutex because of the increased maternal blood volume (same old dose doesn't work as well because it is diluted in the increased BV). I can imagine it was tough for you. The guilt of What did I do to my child! Is not easy at all, and add on top of that the postpartum hormones and you get one big emotional mess. I have heard many, many cases of children who were born to subs moms and have been fine, though most I do hear experience withdrawal when exposed for the entire pregnancy, and many need an opiate tincture in the NICU to help with withdrawals.

On the same topic though of children and opiates though, just an FYI to anyone out there reading this. I just read yesterday that Codeine is turned to morphine in the human body, and when excreted in breastmilk, can cause morphine overdose in toxic levels to a breastfed infant. SOme children hypermetabolize and it has caused death. Why am I saying this? Well, Codeine is often prescribed for pain after birth and is considered "safe". It may be suggested that we look into alternate meds for that in the event they are needed.... SELF ADVOCATE!!!!

hello again,

Thank you so much for your encouraging response again! I will try to stay very active on vacation and I will definitely stay hydrated! I hope my doctor says yes to the epsom salt baths. That sounds wonderful!

Before I went on subs, i was taking about 35 LorTabs daily.... It started with neck surgery (I had a ruptured disc removed and a bone fusion.) Then shortly after that I was hospitalized with Pancreatitis. VERY PAINFUL!

Well after those two experiences, my body was completely dependent (and addicted) to main meds.... I took them for about 8 years, but it got too expensive and too dangerous, and i found a doctor who could help me. So I voluntarily asked for help, and he prescribed me suboxone. I was on that for one year when i found out i was pregnant, and that's when he switched me to subutex....

So here i am.... And now i want to be normal again, gosh it has been so many years since i have been without meds... i can't even remember what it is like....

i will definitely let you know how things work out...

Again, THANK YOU SO MUCH!!! You have helped me more than i can ever put into words!!!!

The beautiful thing is, life without drugs, once you get through withdrawals, is like life with drugs, only that you don't have to take anything to stay "normal"... does that make sense? Yes, you will still think about it, but I bet you will do fine. Isn't it amazing that we can be prescribed all kinds of pain pills and then have the Dr who prescribe them turn and call you an addict and have you feel badly about YOUR addiction? Do you remember getting a solid education on the risks of the pills when you first went on them? I recall my Dr. telling me if I took them as prescribed, I would not become addicted.... nice try, but addiction is in my family... so lucky me.

Still, I have to believe there are other ways to manage pain that the pharmaceutical companies don't want us to know about... I mean, if they can get us hooked, then we either keep taking the narcotics any way we can get them, or we go on methadone or suboxone... all of which they end up profiting greatly from... because these are often lifelong maintainance drugs, any way you look at it. Sad, isn't it? :-/

Anyhow, I digress... you will do well. You have the drive to do it! And just remember, SO MANY others have done it too... it is not an impossible task

well, i'm a failure.... i tried so hard to come off of the subutex completely, but all i was able to do was just spread out how often i take it a little more....
it does feel impossible... and right now i feel hopeless and depressed.... i start my 16th week tomorrow....

i don't know what i'm going to do... if i can't do it while on vacation, how can i do it when i have to get up and go to work everyday.... how will i function???

i need advice and help.... i just don't know what else to do.....

Hi there Stacie,

Now hold on... you are faaaaaaar from being a failure. Far far far from it. Ok, so THIS was not the time for you. Big deal. Try again. And again. and when you and your body are ready, you will come off. That may or may not be before your 24th week. If you have to, stay on it through your pregnancy, but just stay on the lowest dose possible (use your Dr.'s guidelines though... not mine - I am no Dr.). Many people stay on it through a pregnancy. You wold not be the first

You did great and you are doing great. You were able to spread out how often you take it. That is PROGRESS. Try not to dwell on the fact that you could not stop taking them just yet. May I ask how much you are on now and how often? What has your Dr. said to you about tapering down and eventually coming off?

Ok, not that stretching the truth at work is a good idea.. it is not. However, we are also in a time where this H1N1 virus is going around. When you do come off totally, you may (and I stress MAY, not WILL) have some symptoms that are a little flu-like. You could take some time off to recover and rest at home and just simply stay in bed if you need to. I am sure your employer would prefer that if you had flu symptoms, you stay home.

Now, we are all different in our recovery. I was able to start feeling better after (really, ON) day 3. Day 1 and 2 were scary for me because I didn't know what to expect. Just remember, if you need anything, I am just a quick email away... and I will of course respond!

Hang in there friend. You are so NOT alone!

Hi, ive been avidly reading these posts as i am due to start back on the subutex tomorrow (again - after slipping back into bad habits recently). I just wanted to add that i too had my baby last year on subutex (2.4mg per day) . Under the advice of my keyworker and midwife i had to stay in hospital for 5 days so they could assess the baby and do what they call 'score'him incase he was suffering any withdrawals when born. With my family not being aware of me being on subutex it was very difficult and i was extremely reluctant to stay that long but din't have much choice. My baby boy (Liam) was born with no complications and the birth was relatively quick and straightforward. He was a healthy 7.7pounds as thought he may be born a low weight due to subutex and also smoking (!**@!). I didn't even get to have any pain relief other than gas and air as i was too far gone by the time i went into hospital in labour. On the second day Liam was very irritable and cried a lot more than the other babies on the ward as well as a slight high pitched cry, though not that noticeable if you didn't know and not as bad cry as babies iv'e heard on tv suffering w/d. I think they scored from 1-5 and the highest liam ever scored over the 5 days was 3. If he'd have scored higher and on all the diff things they score on then they assess whether the baby should be transferred to special care unit and given Oramorf to ease any w/d symptons. I was absolutely dreading this being the case - for both the fact i still didnt' want to explain all this to family (id said that they thought Liam might have been born with an infection and they needed to keep us in incase he needed a course of antibiotics), as well as i certainly didn't want to leave my baby in hospital and go home alone without him, infact i couldn't contemplate doing this under any circumstances. Fortunatly liam never scored high enough, and his irritability was treated with paracetomal, infact after the first paracetomol he was so much more settled and was as though 'cured' him. He was given it once more the next day when he started with a little irritability, though nowhere near as much as he'd suffered before. Thus we were discharged on the friday afternoon (Liam had been born the previous sunday a.noon), and went home and had no problems whatsoever. Liam is now a gorgeous, healthy, happy, smiley and very determined 10 month old with a real strong personality - the only problem is that ive stupidly fallen into bad habits while being off work on maternity leave the last 3 months, though hopefully that should be sorted tomorrow going back on subutex and under supervision at the chemist. Good luck to those who are pregnant and contemplating coming off subutex before the birth, i wasn't strong enough to do that. I was also told that even if i did stop it that i would still have to do the 5-day stay in hospital due to having had subutex present in my body in the earlier stages of pregnancy.

Spidermiss,

I am so glad to hear that everything worked out just fine for you and of course for Liam. I am a bit surprised to hear that you were told that you would have to stay because of subutex in your system from early in your pregnancy. I have not heard this in the past, only that tapering and coming off subutex can cause miscarriage due to the effects of withdrawal. One has to wonder if your doctor was concerned that miscarriage would be imminent if you came off, thus stating that you would have the hospital stay either way (so suggesting you stick on the safe side). I am assuming based on the terminology you used in your post that you are not from the US. For those unsure, paracetamol is acetaminophen (tylenol). Anyhow, though possible, I would challenge how subutex would stay in the system for months on end after a total taper. Myself, for example, I have been free of it (yay!) for over a month now, and have been told that although it has a long half life, that time in the system goes no longer than a week or two (and that is being generous, assuming you aren't taking tons and tons of subs...).

I guess my bottom line on this one is, I would be surprised if any doctor would suggest coming off (not that many do) while pregnant if the end result will be the same regardless, while also adding the risk of miscarriage. Of course, I am going on logic, some basic education on the matter, doctor guidance, and gut instinct.

I hope that things get better for you soon. I know it is hard to end up back on whatever got you on the subs in the first place. It is not uncommon you know, for that to happen. It is just good that you recognized that you needed to use the suns again to keep you on the right path!

hello,

thank you so much for responding to me....

i feel much better after reading your reponse....

this has been so so so hard!! I am taking a little crumb, it's probably about .02 mg every twelve hours...

i was taking a crumb every 7 to 9 hours before, but i have stretched it out to every twelve hours.

i have heard, sadly that it doesn't matter what the dose is that you are taking, that the dose doesn't matter, that if you are taking 16 mg a day or .50 mg a day, it will have the same effect on the baby... do you think that is true?

i would be devastated if that is true... i have worked so hard to keep lowering my dose!

the worst part is that creepy crawly feeling that i get when it's been almost 12 hours... it's the hardest thing to describe, but i feel it all over....

i think a few days rest at home would be wonderful.... if i could get my boss to let me off.... plus, he's having a nurse come to our office monday and give the flu shot to everyone so that employees won't miss time from work.....

i don't know what my next step should be.... i guess, i could keep trying to stretch it out, to where it is just once a day, and then every other day...

IT IS SO HARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

do you think that it's true that the baby will have to stay 5 days in hospital even if i stop before week 24?

i hope that is not the case!!!

just another quick note,

i went to see a high risk doctor at the perinatal center and he told me to just stop taking the subutex... he promised me the baby would be fine... he said i could take it at night if i wanted but that he gave me direct permission to stop taking it completely and that the withdrawals would not be severe enough to cause a miscarriage...

he was very familiar with subutex, etc. but it is so contrary to what so many other people say.... but you did it, and you are still okay, so it must be okay...

Getting straight information is tough... I think mostly because people (including doctors) just don't have enough of an education on this. That is my belief anyhow. Not that this is ALWAYS true, but I find that a Dr. is more educated on these issues (much of the time) than the folks who post on the internet (myself included). You don't know who is posting... some people have great intentions, but think they know everything. For example, I have a sister who is so well versed in medical terminology, she could convince anyone that she is a doctor! In fact though, she is a very, very lost drug addict who can manipulate anyone, and is very convincing. So, who knows what you may be reading. Same goes for the question you asked about 16mg vs. crumbs... do I know the answer? No, not really. However, let's use a little logic here... does 16mg do the same thing to YOU that a crumb does? Nope... so chances are, it DOES make a difference. Can I promise that? No, I can't.

Your question about 24 weeks.... again, not sure how that works. I know that with your average narcotics (such as codeine, etc...), studies show that they should not be used in the 3rd trimester, or at least in the last few weeks of pregnancy, in order to help avoid having your child become addicted. Call your high risk doctor and ask. Even if he is not your regular doctor, there is no reason to not just pick up the phone. I would be very curious to know what he says.

in fact, why not call that high risk doc back and ask him to reassure you? I am POSITIVE that you are not the first of his patients who is going through this, or has gone through this. I bet he has MUCH worse that he has dealt with. If I had that, I could have mentally made it through withdrawals much easier. By the way, do you realize that you are already experiencing withdrawals? That creepy crawly feeling (which goes away, I might add!!! Sooner than you think ) is part of that. So is the RLS that you may or may not get (that lasted me about 3-4 days... not fun, but not the end of the world either). The thing that frustrated me most (after the not so comfy feelings like the anxiety and the "What is going to happen next" feelings was that I had, um, bad stomach. I was needing to use the bathroom quite a bit, and had to wonder if I would ever have a 'normal' BM again. I am still not 100% in that department, but SOOOOOOO much better. I just make sure to keep hydrated, and when times were a little tough, I stuck to a BRAT diet (banana, rice, applesauce and toast). It helps! My point about reminding you that you are currently IN withdrawal, is this.... why drag it out? You are down to crumbs now, and if you can get your mind around it, you can make the change that you know you want to make. If you stay positive, you may be surprised that it is much easier than you thought. I know I was. Your brain is a powerful thing, and if you let it rule you, it will tell you not to stop... it wants the meds. It wants you to take them. You can remind your brain that it is a mental thing, and that you will be fine. Say it out loud. Listen to calm meditation music, go to yoga classes (those are FANTASTIC), get massages... you see where I am going with this? STAY POSITIVE. Literally, the minute I said, out loud "I am going to be OK", I was. 3 days after my last dose.

Keep me in mind when you are scared. Keep me in mind when you are sure you won't make it through. Keep yourself busy to pass the time, and before you know it, you will be at day 3, then 4, then 5... I marked them on a calendar... it did help!

Hang in there. I am here for you. Call your doctor... he is there for you too!

Oh, and about the flu shot... that helps against your typical flu, not H1N1... not colds, fatigue, stomach bug, migraines, etc.... if you are not one to usually call in sick, and you need to take a day or two or three... your work will be there when you return. At the end of the day, its only business Maybe you call in on a Wed., still sick Thurs, and Friday, and have Sat. and Sun to yourself... you don't have to be superwoman, you know

Do you mind if I ask what you do for a living? I know some jobs are harder to take off from than others, so I do understand. I also understand commitment to a job. However, how committed (and useful) can you be at work when you are already feeling the way you feel? Just something to think about.

i have to tell you that sometimes, looking forward to your posts is what helps actually get me through the day.....

thank you so much!!!

i can definitely tell the withdrawals start with that yucky feeling.... i just don't know how to get pass that.... are those 3 days all equally horrible or is it worse in the beginning or the end??

i am ready... i am so ready to be done with this... and you are right... i have thought about the fact that i am just drawing out this even longer... i know that it can be over in just 3 or 4 days, i am just so terrified!

i would rather deal with flu symptoms, (the runny nose and watery eyes) than the creepy crawly feeling any day... is that feeling just in the beginning? or does it last all 3 days?

i can't believe i am so terrified of just 3 days of discomfort! what is wrong with me?! i know that it will be worth it... i am just so scared....

i wonder if i should just flush my subutex down the toilet and tell my doctor not to give me any more no matter what....

then i don't have a crumb to take when i start feeling icky... i just have to suck it up and go through it....

what do you think?

oh, p.s. - i actually work for a law firm... and i have never called in sick... not one single day....

i wouldn't feel bad calling in sick, but my boss is so strict....

maybe i could take off on a friday or monday, and rest over the weekend as well....

maybe i could start today and go through the weekend and call in monday.....

how wonderful it would be to be free of subutex by next week!!!!!!!!!!!

well im going to try to do it... my last crumb was at 5:30 a.m. - but it was such a teeny tiny crumb that i don't even know if it really did anything...

my last actual crumb was at 6:30 p.m. last evening...

i guess before i can start counting successful days, i could count hours...

i truly hope i can do this over the weekend...

i'm going to really try...

p.s.-my doctor did say it is okay for me to take the epsom salt baths and long as the temperature is not too warm... hopefully that will help....

is water the best way to stay hydrated or do you also think i should try to drink ensure for the nutrients?

You know, I think there is a mental aspect to taking the crumbs... like, your brain says "I will feel better now because I had a little bit". Truthfully though, it is possible that your brain is what is making you feel better for a short while, because you are convinced that the crumb will help... who knows. I know when I committed to remaining positive, it helped tremendously!

Don't fret if you can't do it over the weekend, but certainly, if you are ready, give it a shot. Shoot, I would suggest seeing if you can push yourself through day 3 without anything (crumb-wise), you will have made it over a huge hump. For me, it got much easier from there, every day getting better and better.

I did feel some anxiety for some time, mostly though, anxiety about what was going to happen... when was the worst of it going to hit? I was waking up wondering how terrible I would feel that day... even with the creepy crawlies that you mentioned, ask yourself, can you handle that for a day or two? You are already handling it if you are feeling it, so the answer is.... you ready for it?... yes! You can certainly handle it. You just have to remind yourself of that... and when you forget that you can handle it, just let me know and I will remind you

Book a pregnancy massage this weekend... see who can get you in. Relax and get rid of some of those toxins that way. Also, get a pedicure or something that feels good. REWARD yourself for taking the big step! You are earning it.

As I am re-reading your note, you have already made it 24 HOURS!!! Day 1 down babe! 2 to go.... you can do it.

About hydration, yes, water is good, but gatorade has electrolytes in it (also has sugar though, so don't get too jittery from all the sugar). The ensure plus or boost plus both have vitamins, and can serve as meal replacement if you find that you are disinterested in eating. I also drank ginger ale, anticipating nausea. I didn't vomit at all, and didn't really have too much nausea. Any nausea I did have, I chalked it up to pregnancy, and didn't think twice about it.

I am with you through this. Just don't forget that. I didn't have anyone helping me through my detox, and even I survived it. So, I am here to help make it just that much more possible for you. I just know you can do it.

Let me know how you are doing tomorrow. I will keep checking my email

Hiya guys (sounding yank there, even though im from England!!), just a quick note to say thanks for replying to my post, Gettingthroughit, and to StacieB - all the best trying to come off the subbies, i hope you manage it. Although the physical pain is very uncomfortable, i think the mental pain far outweighs it as your mind cannot concentrate on anything else other than constantly thinking about what you're doing as well as feeling down and depressed. I did start writing more on this post then the page went back to the previous one and i lost everything i'd written! Its really sunny and warm here for this time of year (and for first time in weeks as been crap summer as usual), so im off to make most of it and join my mates outside pub! I'll check back here when i've chance next though, probably sometime tomorrow when little Liam might be having an afternoon snooze. Let us know how you're getting on StacieB. ;}

hello,

i made it until saturday morning at 4 am and i was tossing and turning so much and feeling so horrible that i took a crumb....

i justified it in my head, telling myself all the things i wanted to get done over the weekend.... knowing that i couldn't do anything if i was feeling that way....

it was a tinier crumb than usual, and i took another about 11 hours later, and then again 10 to 11 hours later... etc....

im almost out of crumbs and i am not going to ask for a refill.... when i'm out, i'm out....

i will have no choice but to just go through it....

as you said, it's only a few days, right...

it's so easy for me to say when not experiencing withdrawals at the moment....

i have enough crumbs to last me about 3 or 4 more days, and that's it....

thank you for continuing to be so supportive! even though it is taking me a while to come off of.... you are so patient with me and i really very much appreciate it!

i will really need you during those days when i am going through the withdrawals... i'll let you know when it starts i am so scared!

i just realized- i have a checkup with my obgyn doctor on wednesday....

it might be a good idea to try to stop subs now, since my doctor will be listening to my baby's heartbeat wednesday...

especially if there is a risk for problems from withdrawals....

if only i could just do it... i think it's hard when i have the medicine right there in my purse....

this is just insane.... why can't i do this?!?!?!?!?!?!

gettingthroughit:

are you okay? i haven't heard from you.... i just want to make sure you are doing okay.... and that baby is doing okay....

hope all is going well!!!

-stacie