The problem is dearie, NO ONE fits into EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY by themselves, and since a major TREND OF YOURS is to manipulate the posts of others, then call THEM liars...well, if the shoe fits...
For example, an OP posts this:


I respond with:

To which YOU respond with:

See that bold "Most"? That is where YOU attempted to manipulate MY post to make YOUR posts right... because in fact, I never said "Most"
As you should know all to well, "many" does not equal "most". Heck, "many" could only equal a third. And if you read closely, that "many" that I typed had nothing to do with abortions and why they are done, it had to do with MANY women REGRETTING their abortions.

My point being, when you start calling others liars, like myself, when it is YOU manipulating OUR posts, when you start attacking OUR personal views, quoting us, misconstruing our posts, such as me, Darkmoon, Aochriss, and only a couple others...and when that becomes a trend of yours, we are going to assume you are talking about us and using us in your references. Especially when you always have some retort for only a few of us and you ignore the rest of the posters. And it seems to me that you only post when you can misconstrue someone else's post to make it seem like you are right or your opinion is right, or when you can belittle that person and call them a liar. You cannot say that a single person fits into EVERY SINGLE CATEGORY by themselves, simple as that. But you have this trend of mixing debates, bringing in things a poster has written in other forums to this debate and let's not forget you bringing abortion into the general debate I made of octomom.

Oh please you DID say most abort and you inserted various reasons almost NOBODY except extremist would be against abortion on like rape, incest and the life and health of the mother. You can chop and screw up the post I replied to in order to get your point but I made my case in that forum during that time. Your little example is yet another chance for you to try to jack someone's thread where you see I've posted in an attempt to make it all about you.

I respond to things I want to respond to, which is usually something that comes off so anti-baby, anti-woman, anti-non-white, anti-christ that its outright offensive, tactless and severely lacking in basic human decency. I call out people, on either side of the debate when I see that they are spouting BS. I don't align myself with everysingle person that proclaims to be pro-choice just because they identify that way. The pool of pro-choicers are diverse and yes there ARE categories, aethist/anti-christ and anti-baby just to name a few. Those two subgroups tend to be the most offensive because 1) you have to have a HUGE stick up your @$$ to hate a group of human beings who did not, could not and would not ever do anything to cause you harm and 2) being so strongly anti-christ/religion to the point wher eyou actually feel comfortable demeaning and disrespecting it is extremist. It makes you NO better than any other extremist before they become violent if or UNTIL you do. Every sick headjob started somewhere and it was typically with being overly aggressive towards people who were defenseless (in the case of the anti-baby, babies are the msot defenseless in our society) or the religious people who hadn't done anything to them (punishing or hating an entire group for what happened long before the people currently in it even existed) except have faith in something they don't believe.

I have a vast array of posts most of which you have been exposed to have called you out for either trying to badtalk religion (specifically christianity) or push your ideas on others concerning childbirth. The way you SAY in the post you quote that you cant tell another woman what to do with her body but yet INSIST with great vigor and self righteousness that Nadia Suleman (octomom is a laughable term because first of all she has 14 children not just the 8 newborns) was WRONG and IRRESPONSIBLE for choosing to have children without first getting her finances to a place where YOU saw fit for HER to decide to allow AHER embryos in her womb and that YOU think she is or will abuse her children. yet you do not know her AT ALL, never met spoke with or see this woman in perosn a day in your natural life.

I took issue with that because it had the stench of hypocrisy. I told you so and then use the analogy of the full spectrum of reproductive rights which on one end is the right to NOT become a parent (use BC, abort, give up for adoption) on the other ends is the right to become a parent (fertility treatments, adopt, NOT abort etc) as many times as you wish under any circumstances for any reasons. THAT is boldily autonomy THAT is choice. It wont be what YOU want for every woman or how YOU would like it but so many people wave around what is responsible and then act offended when pro-lifers do it and its just downright ignorant, immature and illogical to do so because of the blatant hypocrisy. How could you proclaim to be on the reasonable side when you say something as blatantly unreasonably hypocritcal as the implication of a woman NOT being allowed to execute her right to choose and have children?

Some people posting here seem to have a very peculiar understanding of logic and unfathomable personal agendas. They read what they want to in other people's posts, and simply argue for the sake of it, based on very thin relationship to what was actually posted. The "quote" function remains a mystery. The mechanics of logical argument are replaced by an alchemy of misdirection and personal affront. Generalisations are employed where it suits, and examples given which easily fall to reductio ad absurdum. Misinterpretation of other posters, whether deliberate or due to ignorance, lead to circular shoving matches or off onto irrelevant tangents.

If someone is so convinced they are right, and everyone else is wrong, it is up to them to make a cogent, coherent argument. Ranting about personal affronts to the rectitude is far less affective.

Wow, I must resort to a very adult reaction. I am tired of defending myself to this self-righteous, holier-than-thou, I-am-right-because-I-say-so, post-manipulating person. Ignore list, here we come. I know what I write, I know what I believe, and I also know that ANYONE on here can look up that thread and see that I DID not misconstrue anything I quoted on this thread. Buh-bye, Phenicks. I am glad you think you are right. Go ahead and believe it. Have a nice life.
Furthermore, I want to apologize to all the other users that have had to sit here and read through these arguments between me and Phenicks. But I did feel the need to defend myself, especially after being called a liar. I do hope you all understand. I am sure everyone on here understands how irritating it can get when you KNOW what you wrote, can QUOTE what you wrote, and then PROVIDE THE LINK (which is here: http://ehealthforum.com/health/abortions-a nd-defficultes-in-future-t176680.html )and then STILL have someone calling you a liar.

And not once have I badtalked Christianity. I may not agree with the principals, may not believe that the bible holds much water, and may not agree that God, if there is one, will send me straight to hell just because I have some misgivings, but I have NEVER jumped down anyone else's throat for them believing in Christ. Heck, one of my sisters is Christian, the other is Pagan and my Oma is Bhuddist. If anyone has no right to talk down any religion, it is me. I have simply stated that I am agnostic, which means, simply put, I don't believe EITHER WAY, but am OPEN to believing, if sufficient evidence is brought to my attention. Like I tell other people, your life, your choice. But when you go shoving YOUR personal religion or beliefs down my throat, don't expect me to keep mum. I don't care what your religion is, what your stance on pro-life/choice is, just don't try to tell me I am WRONG or going to hell for what I BELIEVE, and don't try to shove your beliefs/morals down my throat. Because just as much as my beliefs are not facts but feelings, SO ARE YOURS.

Everybody has their limits, Mother. I certainly don't blame you for reaching yours.

Why do I get the feeling you wouldn't show concern or compassion for a pro-lifer (ANY pro-lifer) who gets murdered? Would you show the same exact outrage? Or does it depend on how the pro-lifer was killed or by whom the pro-lifer was killed? I mean, you expect ALL pro-lifers to IGNORE the fact Tiller killed very devloped unborn humans and feel the same way as YOU do about his death. You should then feel just as disgusted and it shouldn't matter to you if this person fought for unborn human rights. Right?

Adult conversations would mean you'd have to stop trying to type around me when I can clearly see what you are posting. Instead of clucking like a bunch of chickens with ruffled feathers address what your issue is directly or let it go, but such an action is one of tact, class and maturity that some people simply do not possess.

I'll never agree with the line of thinking that is anti-baby which is, until there is a way to create human life that begins in the adult stages, anti-human reproduction. I'll never question my faith in God to make someone feel better about not believing or "being on the fence." It's called integrity even when no one else agrees with me I stand my ground on my opinions, beliefs and mentality. It's an unmoving position because I will not conform to the *clique8 and be a good little drone. That just isn't me and if its illogical to the henhouse, then so be it. I will gladly be the independent thinker who wont question herself because she uses fact or simply have faith in what she says.

Just keep in mind that if you're ignoring me in a show of how you've had enough or are so much more mature than to continue to converse with me, remember not to respond to what I say or make posts directly at me.

There is nothing ignorant about me, I've posted more than a fair share of links with stats to back up what I say. It's ok to hate that I don't tell a rose pictured half truth to further your ideaology, because it makes you look bad. But have comfort in the fact that your followers will have faith and trust in you blindly without a single shred of proof to back you up and they will always be just an internet connection away.

Because that's how you are determined to see my opinion. Your "feeling" would be wrong. If I saw someone try to shoot a non-threatening prolife protester I'd be just as quick to take action to stop it. Your attempt to divert from the subject and justify the glee so many prolifers are expressing over this is dually noted, however.

I'll bet your the sort of person that tries to cloud the issues of women's rights by interposing issues with men's rights as well. If you don't particularly care about the issue you don't want others to care about it either and you'll do your best to trivialize it through diversionary tactics.

We aren't discussing a prolifer's homicide. We're discussing the assassination of an abortion provider by a prolifer that felt he had the right to kill in order to stop women from making private medical choices about their bodies. If you can't form an argument without attempting to draw attention away from the subject, you shouldn't debate.

Try to deny that prolifers everywhere are behaving in a wretched manner over Dr. Tiller's death. I dare you.

To answer your question, yes I would get just as outraged, wouldn't matter how or when the pro-lifer was killed, wouldn't matter who killed him/her, because that prolifer was BORN, SENTIENT, had ALL rights. And the very developed unborn humans that he "killed" were a MINORITY. Someone else posted a link about that. Most of those very developed unborns either had a birth defect or their mother's life was in peril. Note, I did say MOST, not all. I am unsure of the statistics of that hospital's late-term Social abortions, however, if it is like the majority of states now, it would be very low. Most states have a cutoff of 3-4 months gestation for abortion.

I've seen liberals happy when conservatives die. Especially if the conservative had very religious views. No matter that the religioius conservative would never kill anyone. My point is, just because some pro-lifers do not mourn or care about the death of Tiller, it does NOT mean they believe the person who killed him had the right to nor would they have done such an act themselves. These are FEELINGS. Tiller killed late-term fetuses. He obviously had no compassion for humans in the later stages of gestation. I do not know why you would feel that EVERYONE should feel like you do. YOU see nothing wrong with abortion or even purposedly damaging wanted fetuses and have them born deformed. Pro-lifers do not see abortion as simply removing tissue or women having control over their bodies. They see it as killing a human being developing in a womb.

To be honest, with your beliefs about pro-lifers being women-haters, control freaks, and terrorists, I do not believe you would feel outrage with the homicide of a pro-life protestor. I just don't believe it.

NUN, if you look at the link I posted earlier, you will see that it is written by a woman who had a late-stage (5 months, I think) abortion at this clinic. Her fetus was anencephalic.

What is your view on aborting anencephalic fetuses which, even if they are born alive, will not survive more than a few hours?

I became a member of HRC thinking we were all on the same page, marriage equality anti-violence and the like. However 11/21/2008 I got an email, a weekly update in which there was glee over the death of an anti- gay marriage senator. I couldn't believe it. Liberals celebrating someone's death. If you wish Neutral you can send me a private message with your email and I will forward the newsletter to you.

I've seen this kind of thing myself, but in other forums. They even start threads about it because they want everyone to see how happy they are. Pro-lifers aren't the only ones who do things like this. I've seen some pro-choicers say things like, "Good riddance", "It's no great loss", or think it's funny when someone they don't like or agree with dies from a horrible cancer. Would they care if these people got assasinated? Probably not.

I've posted and reposted and reposted that extremists come in conservative, liberal,religious, aethists, democratic, republican, pro-life and pro-choice. There are extremes and extremists on all facets of social issues. I think its a shame when one side thinks they are exempt or downplay their own extremists as of one is somehow better than the other.

I can honestly say the only case in which I'm glad to get word of someone's death or suffering is when it happens to a child molester, rapist or domestic abuser. I don't subscribe to the idea that the death of someone with unsavory ideals is a good thing. I've seen some prochoicers do it myself but not nearly at the level I've witnessed prolifers celebrating the assassination of Dr. Tiller. Some of them are starting new conversations about the doctor that's picking up where Tiller left off and they're already urging killers on their side to make short work of him, too. Check out ProlifeAmerica or Topix if you don't believe me.

Who's they? The extremists? If you're talking about the group Pro-life America I only really see one true nutjob who'd do something like this or urge others to do the same. These kind of people like to kill. If they weren't pro-life, they'd be wanting to kill for some other reason.

Pro-choicers can be just as gleeful about someone's death. You just don't want to see it.

Of course it would be different when the death is of someone who killed humans in a certain stage of life. You see Tiller as a hero. You don't consider the unborn real humans. Or worthy. Or significant in any way. Pro-lifers don't have your views. They see this guy as a KILLER. You would be happy if a child killer gets killed off, yet you don't understand why a pro-lifer would be happy that an unborn child killer gets killed. And you do realize he didn't just kill "blobs" or "tissues" from first trimester pregnancies, right?

I believe you, I've seen it and heard it for myself. It's disgusting and shamelessly legal. I don't like it AT ALL. But I have heard sick vile things about women who choose to have babies and the babies they give birth to on the other side. I've heard people say that the Duggars matriach "ought to be shot in her uterus so she can stop singlehandedly overpopulating the world" it gets NASTY, and some are more vocal on their inner thoughts than others and some sites show a lot more restraint than others but the overall rhetoric starts with the extreme ideals and then those extreme ideals turn to extreme solutions which turn into in few cases extreme actions. ON the whole I'd say there were thousands on both sides who had extreme views but only dozens who actually act on them. Those dozens IMO are the only ones who deserves to be shot anywhere.

Wow, you make a lot of assumptions. I've never said the unborn weren't human. I simply don't believe they have the right to use a woman's body against her will, just like any BORN human. Semantics concerning how the unborn are seen by myself or anyone else mean nothing to me in this debate: the right of a woman to choose when and if someone else uses her body is my main concern. If you'd ever bothered to pay attention to my arguments, you'd have seen that.

Quit trying to put words in people's mouths and tell others how they feel and think. You may be arrogant enough to believe you're a mind reader but the simple fact is you're waaaaay off-base when it comes to my reasons for supporting reproductive choice, bud.

But, why can't you understand that pro-lifers don't view abortion as just a medical procedure to get rid of a human using another human's body? They see a fetus as unborn human who should have the right to live like other humans. Just because YOU feel fetuses don't have the right to live, it doesn't mean pro-lifers should feel the same way. Since they don't, they are horrified about the DEATHS of the unborn that occur every single day.

Pro-lifers see abortion "doctors" as KILLERS. Abortion is not just a medical procedure to them. It involves DEATH and I don't know why you think everyone should feel that these deaths shouldn't matter.

You're only proving my point, Neutral. You're behaving as a terrorism apologist, trying to excuse the actions of the assassin and trivialize the killing of the doctor. You protested so vehemently when I made the observation that most prolifers are either openly gleeful or making excuses and yet you're doing it right now.

"Oh, killing him was wrong, BUT..."

No. There are NO BUTS! I'm sick of hearing you prolifers dehumanize that man. I could go out and start slaughtering rapists on the grounds that hey, who would miss such horrible people? Maybe I should put a bullet between the eyes of the next wifebeater I see, since there will always be people out there willing to support vigilante justice.

Either the death of this man was an inexcusable tragedy or it wasn't. Stop beating around the bush and attempting to distract from the issue or make Dr. Tiller seem less human. If you're relieved that he's gone, at least show some backbone and be honest about it instead of denying the number of people on your side that are relieved or outright ecstatic over the assassination of this man.