Abortion Debate Forum - It IS a baby plain and simple. page 9


It IS a baby plain and simple.

Medical Questions-> Health Forums -> Abortion Debate -> It IS a baby plain and simple.

Author

Message

NeutralUsername

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 361
Location: , United States

Thanks: 17

Thanked:2

online

Posted: 06-09-08 09:29am

Jincks013 wrote:

diamondsz wrote:

[

You have two humans
A mother
A baby with a potential to be a person
why should one side be greater than another if you believe in life and both have one.

Because you place the value of the fetus ABOVE the mother. Her rights are given second place to the fetus. If you truly want equality you need to recognize the right of both; neither would supercede the other. Legally the fetus is not a person. End of the legal story. THerefore, legally, the fetus has no rights.

I have an idea.. if you don't like abortion: don't have one. It is mere arrogance and nothing else to attempt to control the body of another person based only on your opinion.

Why do you and every other PL I've seen for 25 years now seem to think that if its outlawed abortion will magically go away?
Again ( I really hate having to keep repeating this decade after decade) Abortion Was Made Legal TO SAVE THE LIVES OF WOMEN.

WHy do you want to kill women?

I would like to know why YOU or any other pro-choicer like you would want to be in a debate forum if you strongly believe that pro-lifers want to kill women or simply control them. You obviously don't sound like someone who wants to debate the topic at all. Your comment, "If you don't like abortion, don't have one" does not make sense to a pro-lifer. That's like saying, if you don't like homicide, don't commit one. We don't see abortion as simply removing a pregnancy or just some medical procedure.

diamondsz

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 3333
Location: , Candyland-Canada

Thanks: 98

Thanked:159

Posted: 06-09-08 11:07am

NeutralUsername wrote:

Jincks013 wrote:

diamondsz wrote:

[

You have two humans
A mother
A baby with a potential to be a person
why should one side be greater than another if you believe in life and both have one.

What about the person who feels it is control are they wrong?

the point that is being made...............what floats your boat doesnt necessarily float everyone elses boat...

If you dont like abortion that is fine but it is right for the person who is getting it.

Jincks013

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
Location: ,

Thanks: 23

Thanked:13

Posted: 06-10-08 10:05am

NeutralUsername wrote:

I would like to know why YOU or any other pro-choicer like you would want to be in a debate forum if you strongly believe that pro-lifers want to kill women or simply control them.

Possible because you should only control your own body and your own medical choices. It really is that simple. I don't want to control yours. You want to control mine.

NeutralUsername wrote:

You obviously don't sound like someone who wants to debate the topic at all.

Kitlet I have been 'debating' this issue for 25 years against much better opponents then you. So far you have not provided a single shred of actual unbiased evidence, you resort to fallacy and ad homien attacks (attacking the person not the issue), like you are engaging in right now.

NeutralUsername wrote:

Your comment, "If you don't like abortion, don't have one" does not make sense to a pro-lifer.

Why not? Its like saying "if you don't like drunk drivers then don't do it" its called practice what you preach. Again we go back to the issue you want control of my reproductive organs but I don't care about yours. Leave my body and my medical choices to me; I have no interest to in yours.

NeutralUsername wrote:

That's like saying, if you don't like homicide, don't commit one.

I rest my case, thank you for finally grasping the point.

NeutralUsername wrote:

We don't see abortion as simply removing a pregnancy or just some medical procedure.

What makes you think your opinion should be mine? Why do you think your opinion should control my body? What makes it so special?
Teacher time: everyone is entitled to their own opinion, that is abosolutely true, however, you do not have the right to force that opinion on others.

Users who thank Jincks013 for this post: Darkmoon aochriss diamondsz

oopoopoop

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 1515
Location: ,

Thanks: 78

Thanked:5

Posted: 06-10-08 15:09pm

Jincks013 wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

Your comment, "If you don't like abortion, don't have one" does not make sense to a pro-lifer.

NeutralUsername wrote:

That's like saying, if you don't like homicide, don't commit one.

I rest my case, thank you for finally grasping the point.

I tend to think of it more like "If you don't like anal sex, don't do it." or "If you don't like the idea of homosexuality, don't do it." or "If you don't like nude beaches, don't go to them." There are a lot of things that offend some people, but they think their ideas are so much better and more correct than other people's -- even if other people engaging in an activity has nothing to do with them whatsoever. They still want to stop other people from behaving how they want to.

NeutralUsername

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 361
Location: , United States

Thanks: 17

Thanked:2

online

Posted: 06-10-08 15:14pm

Jincks013 wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

I would like to know why YOU or any other pro-choicer like you would want to be in a debate forum if you strongly believe that pro-lifers want to kill women or simply control them.

Possible because you should only control your own body and your own medical choices. It really is that simple. I don't want to control yours. You want to control mine.

NeutralUsername wrote:

You obviously don't sound like someone who wants to debate the topic at all.

NeutralUsername wrote:

Your comment, "If you don't like abortion, don't have one" does not make sense to a pro-lifer.

NeutralUsername wrote:

That's like saying, if you don't like homicide, don't commit one.

I rest my case, thank you for finally grasping the point.

NeutralUsername wrote:

We don't see abortion as simply removing a pregnancy or just some medical procedure.

The person I was QUOTING does not appear to actually be here to debate. More like bashing pro-lifers. I am not name-calling. I am not making generalizations about pro-choicers. You know it. If you, for some reason feel that I was, did you actually read the person's post that I was quoting? Their post was FULL of OPINIONS and GENERALIZATIONS of pro-lifers. No facts. Anyone makes a sarcastic rude post about pro-lifers, I have a right to say something.

I am not "kitlet". Call me by my username. What's with the condescending attitude?

"Why not? Its like saying "if you don't like drunk drivers then don't do it" its called practice what you preach. Again we go back to the issue you want control of my reproductive organs but I don't care about yours. Leave my body and my medical choices to me; I have no interest to in yours."

You don't tell someone if they don't like drunk driving to not just do it. Drinking and driving kills. Abortion kills. "Don't like abortion, then don't have one" is getting old. It means nothing. You know it. Put yourself in a pro-lifer's shoes and maybe you will see.

Jincks013

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
Location: ,

Thanks: 23

Thanked:13

Posted: 06-10-08 15:28pm

oopoopoop wrote:

Jincks013 wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

Your comment, "If you don't like abortion, don't have one" does not make sense to a pro-lifer.

NeutralUsername wrote:

That's like saying, if you don't like homicide, don't commit one.

I rest my case, thank you for finally grasping the point.

Absolutely. It has nothing to do with 'caring' or any such emotive excuse. It really is about controlling the choices of others. It always has been.

NeutralUsername

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 361
Location: , United States

Thanks: 17

Thanked:2

online

Posted: 06-10-08 15:33pm

Jincks013 wrote:

oopoopoop wrote:

Jincks013 wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

Your comment, "If you don't like abortion, don't have one" does not make sense to a pro-lifer.

NeutralUsername wrote:

That's like saying, if you don't like homicide, don't commit one.

I rest my case, thank you for finally grasping the point.

Absolutely. It has nothing to do with 'caring' or any such emotive excuse. It really is about controlling the choices of others. It always has been.

If abortion did not involve the KILLING of an unborn human, then there wouldn't be a controversy.

Jincks013

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
Location: ,

Thanks: 23

Thanked:13

Posted: 06-10-08 15:44pm

NeutralUsername wrote:

The person I was QUOTING does not appear to actually be here to debate.

Again, and why do I have to keep repeating myself with you?, I have not seen you debate yet. I have debated this issue for 25 years now.

NeutralUsername wrote:

More like bashing pro-lifers.

Sort of like attacking the poster; not the post? Yes.. the irony here does not escape me.

NeutralUsername wrote:

I am not name-calling. I am not making generalizations about pro-choicers. You know it.

calling us killers or claiming, directly or indirectly we don't care about babies is so socially positive right? I see a great deal of you defending your attitudes and behaviors but no debate or facts as yet.

NeutralUsername wrote:

If you, for some reason feel that I was, did you actually read the person's post that I was quoting?

I also read. Rather well actually, I've read plenty of your posts so far. Enough to know you. I also have posted on prolifeamerica site. I know who you are and I know what you post that wouldn't be accepted here.

NeutralUsername wrote:

Their post was FULL of OPINIONS and GENERALIZATIONS of pro-lifers. No facts.

You can prove this? I'd appreciate the unbiased evidence with source links, like we use in debates

NeutralUsername wrote:

Anyone makes a sarcastic rude post about pro-lifers, I have a right to say something.

Whats with this issuing orders thing you are so obsessed with? FYI that is, only, your opinion. Please do not try to silence other posters merely because you don't have the same opinion. Everyons opinion is equally important. Not just yours.

NeutralUsername wrote:

I am not "kitlet". Call me by my username. What's with the condescending attitude?

Then act like an adult and stop attacking posters, attack posts, use facts, use sources.

NeutralUsername wrote:

Very nice now just answer the question. If you really are here to debate then the courteous and logical thing to do would be to provide and answer, back it up with facts from unbiased sources and provide links to that information.
This goes well with being considered and adult debater.

NeutralUsername wrote:

You don't tell someone if they don't like drunk driving to not just do it. Drinking and driving kills. Abortion kills. "Don't like abortion, then don't have one" is getting old. It means nothing. You know it. Put yourself in a pro-lifer's shoes and maybe you will see.

I also don't like peanut butter but you don't see my trying to stop it from being manufactured and used by others.
You don't like abortion and I'm betting you aren't even the sex that gets pregnant.

oopoopoop

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Mar 2004
Posts: 1515
Location: ,

Thanks: 78

Thanked:5

Posted: 06-10-08 16:25pm

NeutralUsername wrote:

If abortion did not involve the KILLING of an unborn human, then there wouldn't be a controversy.

Similarly, if a fetus was not inhabiting the autonomous body of a sentient individual...Oh wait -- it's only women that catch pregnancy. So it's only women's rights that are being cancelled out. Doesn't matter then, I guess.

Birch

Supporter

Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 4159
Location: Bliss,

Thanks: 159

Thanked:16

Posted: 06-10-08 16:27pm

NeutralUsername wrote:

I would like to know why YOU or any other pro-choicer like you would want to be in a debate forum if you strongly believe that pro-lifers want to kill women or simply control them.

Show the reality of the situation?

NeutralUsername wrote:

That's like saying, if you don't like homicide, don't commit one.

More like if you don't want to go to jail forever, don't commit a homicide. Cause and effect.

If you cannot choose abortion, don't put yourself in the position to need one.

NeutralUsername wrote:

We don't see abortion as simply removing a pregnancy or just some medical procedure.

That is plain. Sticking moral arguments onto a medical procedure is a prolife philosophy.

NeutralUsername wrote:

You've done that with me.

http://ehealthforum.com/hea lth/woman-control-prolife-checklist-t14301 1_20.html

NeutralUsername wrote:

Whatever. It's only the truth TO YOU because that is what you believe of all pro-lifers. I mean, a pro-lifer could do the same thing if they made a post badmouthing pro-choicers, right?

------

NeutralUsername wrote:

Yes, actually---> You tell people if they don't want to go to jail for drunk driving, then don't do it.

Jincks013

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
Location: ,

Thanks: 23

Thanked:13

Posted: 06-11-08 09:26am


Actual debate question for you Nuetral: You assert a unborn Z/E/F is a person with all legal rights as any born person. So my question is: Should fertilized eggs and embryos get social security numbers? What benefits should they be entitled to? Why or why not? Please substantiate your answer with factual reasons and quote unbiased sources.

NeutralUsername

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 361
Location: , United States

Thanks: 17

Thanked:2

online

Posted: 06-11-08 09:31am

Jincks013 wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

The person I was QUOTING does not appear to actually be here to debate.

Again, and why do I have to keep repeating myself with you?, I have not seen you debate yet. I have debated this issue for 25 years now.

NeutralUsername wrote:

More like bashing pro-lifers.

Sort of like attacking the poster; not the post? Yes.. the irony here does not escape me.

NeutralUsername wrote:

I am not name-calling. I am not making generalizations about pro-choicers. You know it.

NeutralUsername wrote:

If you, for some reason feel that I was, did you actually read the person's post that I was quoting?

NeutralUsername wrote:

Their post was FULL of OPINIONS and GENERALIZATIONS of pro-lifers. No facts.

You can prove this? I'd appreciate the unbiased evidence with source links, like we use in debates

NeutralUsername wrote:

Anyone makes a sarcastic rude post about pro-lifers, I have a right to say something.

NeutralUsername wrote:

I am not "kitlet". Call me by my username. What's with the condescending attitude?

Then act like an adult and stop attacking posters, attack posts, use facts, use sources.

NeutralUsername wrote:

I also don't like peanut butter but you don't see my trying to stop it from being manufactured and used by others.
You don't like abortion and I'm betting you aren't even the sex that gets pregnant.

The people BASHING pro-lifers are only giving opinions. They have no proof that a majority or all pro-lifers are women hating extremists. Get real.

"calling us killers or claiming, directly or indirectly we don't care about babies is so socially positive right? I see a great deal of you defending your attitudes and behaviors but no debate or facts as yet."

Right here proves that you don't care about facts. Only opinions. You are assuming things that you can NOT base on my posts. I've never made any of these comments. You know it. What are you trying to do? Perhaps you DO think all pro-lifers are alike? How can someone like you actually debate if you believe this? What made you think I feel this way? And you say I can't debate like an adult? At least I KNOW that not all pro-choicers are the same and I don't make generalizations about them as a whole. Unless you want me to. Some pro-choicers are doing it here...

Birch

Supporter

Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 4159
Location: Bliss,

Thanks: 159

Thanked:16

Posted: 06-11-08 11:21am

NeutralUsername wrote:

The people BASHING pro-lifers are only giving opinions. They have no proof that a majority or all pro-lifers are women hating extremists. Get real.

That's not true. (The giving opinions part).

I witness everyday prolife advocates lying to the public. They post their "six week abortion" (etc.) pictures in front of a clinic and they are babies with arms and legs torn off. These people are liars, and that is a fact, not an opinion.

Additionally, and what you keep ignoring, is advocating a prolife philosophy has very negative and unpleasant side effects which can translate into an anti-woman, anti-sex, anti-child idealogy.

Users who thank Birch for this post: diamondsz aochriss

aochriss

Active User, Really EHEALTHy

Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 728

Thanks: 93

Thanked:175

Posted: 06-11-08 13:38pm

NeutralUsername wrote:

"Why not? Its like saying "if you don't like drunk drivers then don't do it" its called practice what you preach. Again we go back to the issue you want control of my reproductive organs but I don't care about yours. Leave my body and my medical choices to me; I have no interest to in yours."

You don't tell someone if they don't like drunk driving to not just do it. Drinking and driving kills. Abortion kills. "Don't like abortion, then don't have one" is getting old. It means nothing. You know it. Put yourself in a pro-lifer's shoes and maybe you will see.

In most examples pro-lifers use such as
"if you don't like drunk drivers then don't do it", most people agree what drunk driving is, and most people agree with the danger it involves.

However, not everyone agrees that abortion is homicide. Not everyone even agrees what the embryo represents, or how much value to ascribe to it. It is impossible to come to a consensus on the matter because there is no one right answer.

Another difference with reproductive rights is that one person is taking control of another person's own internal physical body whereas in the drunk driving scenario, one person is telling another person not to use their car as a weapon against other people.

NeutralUsername

Experienced User , Rather EHEALTHy

Joined: 02 May 2008
Posts: 361
Location: , United States

Thanks: 17

Thanked:2

online

Posted: 06-11-08 15:16pm

aochriss wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

Legally, abortion is not homicide (only when it is wanted and in late term and caused by someone other than a doctor apparently). But, it is a fact that abortion kills a human life. The embryo or fetus is an unborn human offspring. It is alive. It contains unique DNA that no one else will ever have. That's the reason why some pro-lifers are against abortion.

Telling a pro-lifer that if they don't like abortion then don't have one doesn't make any sense. If they see it as an unjust death of a fetal human, then that phrase will have no meaning. So, why would anyone say it?

diamondsz

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 07 Oct 2005
Posts: 3333
Location: , Candyland-Canada

Thanks: 98

Thanked:159

Posted: 06-11-08 15:51pm

NeutralUsername wrote:

aochriss wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

LET ME MAKE this clear I am not pro-abortion........

If Abortion saves the lives not necessarily of the mother but other people around the world, then why do people view it as wrong? If you taking the rights of a child who is already here to be denied what they are entitled to someone who knows that their child might end up that way why THE HELL do they do it?

****************************************
HOW COULD YOU BRING one life into this world to take the life of another child away, I ask pro-life.. I want an answer!!!!!!!
************************************
What is the difference between a live child or one that is dependant, no sentinent or does not feel pain.

You know what kills me is when I see children who have nothing, when at 5 they tell you stories of not eating or having some malicious diesease, then you deny their right to life by bringing in a potential.

There is something wrong with that.

Birch

Supporter

Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Posts: 4159
Location: Bliss,

Thanks: 159

Thanked:16

Posted: 06-11-08 16:20pm

NeutralUsername wrote:

aochriss wrote:

NeutralUsername wrote:

People keep giving you information and you go back to parroting the same propaganda.

Abortion is only objectionable at the moral level, and not everyone shares the same morals.
Since the only individual directly involved in abortion is the mother, who has to live with her choice, and not society or, say, YOU, then it is not your call to make.

Educate, give women information, and allow them to exercise their own autonomy.

When I have sex, I don't decide to let NeutralUserName make further decisions about my physical body. That's absurd. I don't even know you. I don't even know if you can make a good decision or not; why would I allow you to make decisions for me? I would never presume to do for you.

Maybe there's a little egocentricism that goes along with being a prolife advocate. Laughing

Users who thank Birch for this post: diamondsz

Moo

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 20 Feb 2006
Posts: 1066
Location: London

Thanks: 21

Thanked:111

Posted: 06-12-08 04:16am

NeutralUsername wrote:

GENERALIZATIONS of pro-lifers. No facts.

And no-one ever generalizes about the women who have abortions or their reasons now do they Rolling Eyes

It's a debate, people do generalize. Get over it Rolling Eyes

Jincks013

Extremely EHEALTHy

Joined: 18 Apr 2007
Posts: 1180
Location: ,

Thanks: 23

Thanked:13

Posted: 06-12-08 07:17am

Jincks013 wrote:

Actual debate question for you Nuetral:

You assert a unborn Z/E/F is a person with all legal rights as any born person. So my question is: Should fertilized eggs and embryos get social security numbers? What benefits should they be entitled to?

Why or why not? Please substantiate your answer with factual reasons and quote unbiased sources.

Nuetral, please answer the above debate question. If you fail to do so you prove you are here to bash people not discuss issues.
Practice what you preach. Debate or go find a flame forum.

leftistdestroyer

New User, Becoming EHEALTHy

Joined: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 28
Location: ,

Re: It IS a baby plain and simple.
Posted: 06-15-08 19:39pm

jujujellybean wrote:

And then also:

What if she brings the child into the world only to neglect her? She won't feed it or breastfeed it. Is that wrong?
Someone said that is wrong because she chose to bring the child into the world; so? doesn't she still have the right to do what she wants with her body?

During an abortion, little pieces of a body are removed from the mother. They do not belong to the mother or her body. Where is the "right" to do that to another body, written?

And, throughout history, when has the quality of life been the sole determining factor? No other animal on the planet does what we do. Life is about living, not whether or not we have air conditioning or not or fillet mignon as opposed to cornmeal. The overwhelming majority of life in the world, proves that life is not about the quality of life. If a child is sexually abused, would it be better off if we simply removed that child from her life because it wasn't as good as it could have been? And who is to say that a child for sure, will be neglected? The mother could win the lottery for all we know.