Why do you want to tell women you have never known, or will never know, what to do with their own personal medical decisions?

If you do not like abortion, do not have one. Let every individual live with their own decisions, their own morals, their own conscience. You do not need to take on the conscience of others.

Yes, abortion kills the fetus/embryo/child/baby/widget. That's the goal. I have had an abortion [*gasp*] incidentally. So I do know first hand.

When their own personal medical decisions involve killing a person, I have a right to make it my business. If you saw someone being killed on the street you had never met what would you do? Stand there or call 911?
I am not taking on the consciences of others simply trying to stop the killing of babies it's as simple as that.
I find it so sad when people realize this and just don't care.

I think the fundamental flaw in your argument is that no one is out there killing babies (except quite a lot of people who didn't have abortions, of course -- it is parents who are responsible for the vast majority of murders of children). Anyway -- I just don't see all these folks saying "hmm, should I have an abortion? Or should I just go and kill some kid in the street? Abortion this time, I think!"

I think it's seriously silly to equate embryos and a baby who was wanted and born.

Well then you think it is silly to use science. IT IS alive, IT IS a human in the earliest stages of development, IT IS a baby, because then you wouldn't be pregnant.
When, may I ask, does it magically become a baby? When the mother wants it? When does it just turn into a baby all of a sudden?
No you don't kill a kid in the street. But when you have an abortion, you are stopping a child from ever being in that street, killing it.

Jules, I’ve read this entire debate, and I what to ask you a question or two. If a woman’s life is in danger because she is pregnant (eg very high blood pressure brought on by the pregnancy) would you consider it okay for her to have an abortion, seeing that they both could die?
And if a girl/woman is raped, and she falls pregnant, would it be okay to abort? I personally would just loose it if this happened to me, and to have a constant, 40 week reminder of what happened to you.. Sorry, I can’t even fathom that. How do you feel about that?

Are you really directing this at me or do you mean it for jujujellie?

In case you do mean me I will answer you

Assuming the only treatment available for this high blood pressure was removal of the foetus then I would support abortion if the baby was non-viable or if a c-section would seriously endanger the life of the mother.

If a woman is raped and doesn't want to continue the pregnancy then I would accept her right to have an abortion.

Oops! Jujujelliebeans and I have been exchanging pm’s and I started calling her Jules. (Her name is Julie) Sorry about the confusion.

LOL - I did think it was odd since I hadn't really participated thus far!

No worries!

I'd like to see some scientific proof of the things in bold, please.

Thanks, Jules.
I just want to add that hypertension was only an example. The mother could be suffering from a heart condition as well. I just wanted Juju’s opinion on medical abortion.

Aochriss, Juju raised a very good point here. When would you start considering the fetus as a baby?

Sure. Lets see: it's not a cow, and since it is coming from a human, it is automatically a homo sapiens. It is a human embryo, that is obvious. And, since baby is what we use to qualify a little person, baby is what it is; look it up on dictionary.com and you will see under baby it says unborn fetus.

Well, I guess I think the same as the Church: it doesn't do any good to do something evil so good may result. Which makes sense to me!
Also about rape, that would be hard, but rape is the only time an innocent bystander can be killed for doing absolutely nothing. It doesn't make sense to me to kill the child for something that was no one's fault.

Point taken, but don’t you think that’s a little harsh?
I know a lady who was diagnosed with cancer shortly after she found out that she was pregnant. To say something to her in the order of; ‘We are not going to treat you - you are pregnant. You and your baby are just going to have to die.’ Ouch.
I think it is better to save one life rather than to have both die.

And as far as rapes go: maybe you should find a forum like this one, one where rape victims can go to for help and support. Maybe if you understand what these women go through for the rest of their lives you will change your mind.

Just a suggestion.

If I didn't like you that wouldn't give me a right to kill you.

Why do you insist that others use your terminology?

You want to say, "Abortion kills a baby!" Fine. I say abortion kills an embryo or fetus.

We're both correct, so it's all good.

If I ever decide to take up residence in one of your internal organs, you have my permission to kill me.

I think juju's position is consistant, at least. If she were conditionally prolife, and decided rape was an allowable exception, then the focus of her prolife philosophy shifts on the circumstances of conception (ie; women's punishment) instead of the sanctity of the life.

I do not agree, but I appreciate the consistancy in this view. Anything else is inconsistant, and since prohibiting abortion in rape cases is ethically disgusting (my opinion) prolife philosophy holds no water, period.

perhaps. but if it is a choice between the mother and the baby, it is not right to have to do something evil so that something good can come out of it.
And believe me, I do understand about rape. If I was raped, and got pregnant, I would feel utter despair. I am pretty sure that it would ruin my life and everything i have come to know. The thing is, that doesnt'justify killing. It's nobodies fault, except the loser that did it, and so it doesn't make sense that the baby should have to take up the worst end.

Thanks birch! a compliment from you is pretty amazing. I'll take it!