But why only humans? Up to a certain point of development, most mammals are pretty similar. After that, chimpanzees or orangutangs are going to be pretty similar to humans too. Why are only human cells, human heartbeats, etc. so important and worth worrying about? Up until brain activity is pretty well established, primate fetuses must be virtually indistinguishable in most respects. Indeed, a two year old chimp has far more brain activity or feelings or life than a 15 week fetus, correct? But why is it so important that a 15 week old human fetus is protected? What is it about being HUMAN that makes you think it needs to be preserved at all cost, no matter what the wishes of the pregnant human female are?

Simply saying it's HUMAN, isn't enough. Why is that important?

An adult chimpanzee is a lot smarter than a newborn baby. Why don't chimpanzees have more rights? Why don't they have personhood? Why would people generally be more horrified if someone killed a newborn human baby than an adult chimpanzee? I mean, babies are just young humans with barely any awareness. I'm going by your logic here. You think the more brain activity and feelings you have, the more important you are, right?

Why do humans even have laws? Why make such a big deal to preserve ANY human life? What if that human life has less brain activity than an ape?

Okay, so you aren#'t basing it on intelligence or brain activity. What then?

Asking ME the question doesn't work. How do YOU justify the importance of a human embryo simply by virtue of its genetic origins? To just keep saying "because it's human" is tautological.

You ask very good questions Neutral

So, YOU are basing it on intelligence or brain activity. Not by species. So, you WOULD believe then that adult chimpanzees are more important than newborn babies and that they should be more valued. If you believe that, then you should be more outraged about the fact that animals are killed everyday for food and sport. You should be fighting for personhood of species other than humans. I mean, what makes us so special?

It's natural to want to care about your species more so than another. Other species tend to do the same. Sometimes people by instinct prefer to save a child they do not know over their dog they've had for 5 years. You want me to justify my view. How about you do the same? Why do you feel intelligence and brain activity is what makes one important, yet not feel that other animals should have a similar status to us? Would you let someone else's newborn baby die so you can save an adult dog who very likely is more aware and has more intelligence? Why or why not?

Pro-lifers don't see an embryo or fetus as just pieces of tissue. We see them as human beings in their early stages of development. If we have to go by mental ability, then we would have to do the same with the born. Not all the born have the same abilities. Some can't walk, talk, think normally, have limited ability to think, etc. Does that mean we have to value a "normal" person more so than a person with mental disabilities?

No, I'm not making any claims at all. I never said anyone was more important. I am trying to understand on what basis YOU believe that a human zygote/embryo/fetus must be saved (even from its own maternal incubation unit, if said m.i.u. doesn't want to continue incubating). You have said it is not based on intelligence or brain capacity -- so why is yet another human so important? So important that you feel it is justifiable to override any desire that an adult, competent female may have to have it removed. I have made no claims at all about what I think is important, simply that I see no difference between 64 cells of human, or 64 cells of chimp, or 64 cells of whatever.



I am not asking you to justify your view -- I am trying to understand your way of thinking. No one is asking you to make a choice of which embryo you need to save -- so you are saying that you want to save every human simply because it is the same species as you?

Again, I only raised the issue of intelligence and brain activity to indicate that I understood that this was NOT the criteria you were using. Also, my views on abortion have absolutely nothing to do with any of that. My criteria are: if the m.i.u. doesn't want it there, it should be removed. If a fully adult chimpanzee or the last white rhino were inside that woman, and she didn't want it there, it should be removed too. It has nothing to do with the intelligence or otherwise of the creature in the uterus.


You still haven't explained why the mere fact of being human makes the embryo or fetus so important -- but you do keep saying that it is because it is human that it is so important. More important than the adult human female who is incubating it, in fact.

Lady, its common sense. Saying a pregnancy won't necessarily ruin someone's life dreams is like saying getting hit by a car won't necessarily hurt them. There's a slim chance they're going to walk away from it better off than they were before.

Lady, its common sense. Saying a pregnancy won't necessarily ruin someone's life dreams is like saying getting hit by a car won't necessarily hurt them. There's a slim chance they're going to walk away from it better off than they were before.[/quote]

And if THAT isn't anti-baby/anti working womb I don't know WHAT is!

So women who choose to have babies are playing russian roulette with their life's dreams right? Wow so women who have kids can just kiss success goodbye because the chances are slim being a woman who uses her womb to create another human being in a loving relationship has about the same chance of having a good quality of life as somebody who has been hit by a car which in your opinion without variables is slim?

LMAO, there will be women who agree with you and they agree because they would never ever choose to have children for themselves, but to have this view on OTHERS and call it common sense is just wow. lol Wow.

What does that even mean? Just because I think car crashes suck doesn't mean I'm anti-car. Same applies with pregnancy.



Woa, back up there. Choose? No. This whole debate is about the ones who don't choose.

Yeah but you made a general statement, you'd have to specify that *unintended* pregnancies usually changes a person's life dramatically. Which is a far more accurate statement than saying it mostly ruins lives. It varies by person, an ambitious woman will be ambitious and successful pregnant, miscarriage, no children, 4 children because she will drive herself to be successful and may even use the children or absence thereof to push herself even harder. But to say one automatically means she wouldn't be successful is false pretense.

Thinking car crashes suck means you're anti car crashes, thinking pregnancy and the ensuing child ruins lives (suck) means you are against pregnancy and babies.


Car crashes suck because it ruins cars, can hurt, kill or traumatize the people in the cars, causes traffic, costs money, and the list goes on. No car crash is ever a joyous occasion for anyone. Yes pregnancy CAN hurt or even kill a woman who is not reproductively healthy enough to carry a baby to term. This is a sad state of affairs in either case when someone is hurt for either reason. But even if you walk away physically unscathed from a car crash even if your car is ok, you're never happy you got into that crash in the first place. The day of the crash wasn't a joyous event.

Some pregnancies were unintended surprises, surprises but pleasant surprises, ie joyous occasions. There are plenty of people who wanted their children, planned them even, and did not get the end result they wanted. Dr. Tiller's patients could give a tale or two about the *car crashes* in intended pregnancies and many women could give you happy mommy stories about their pleasant little surprises they admittedly tried to avoid (ie they used BC).

I think we can all assume we are talking about unintentional pregnancies, especially if we are debating abortion.



Quite possibly. However not all women are as strong as the woman you are describing. Second of all, children are always going to be a hindrance to one's success in their job or social life. To what degree all depends on how "ambitious" the woman is.



"Car crash" is an analogy that describes unintentional pregnancies, not pregnancies in general. I can assure you that the great majority of people weren't too happy when they found out they were pregnant (assuming they didn't plan for a baby).

Car crash is not a good analogy to describe unintentional pregnancies. The two are potential human life (pregnancy) and one of the biggest causes of human death (car crashes). It's the difference between unintentionally enrolling in Harvard (you may not be able to afford the costs, the repsonsibility may be hard and it can be mentally exhausting) and unintentionally failing and being expelled from Harvard. The latter is a bad thing in every circumstance in every situation. The former has the potential to be a really good thing a great thing that comes with a lot of responsibility and in some cases sacrifice on your part.


I would equate an unintended pregnancy to accidentally doing something that you could regret but have the option to completely eradicate (abort) or try to work it out and be a pleasant surprise. Its USUALLY one of the two, regretting your abortion happens about as often as regretting your born children and has nothing to do with anyone else but the choice you made for you with your situation. No one chooses to die after getting in a car crash or chooses to lose their legs or be in a vegetative state after a car crash the way one can choose to continue a pregnancy and bear a child.

I just do not view babies and children as one of the worst things that could happen to a person the way I view car crashes. I think human life is great and that reproduction (never forced or coerced) is awesome and good for the human species. I wish there was a way to get rid of all car crashes I couldn't say the same thing about babies and children. As a mother who actually loves and has no regret about her child, I simply could not and would not.

An analogy serves to prove a point. When comparing car crashes to unintentional pregnancies, I was hoping you'd get the point instead of start pointing out insignificant scientific differences between pregnancy and auto accidents.

The Harvard analogy is absurd. Harvard students are generally successful. Teenage mothers who unintentionally get knocked up are usually not the most successful.

Aside from that, it is impossible to "unintentionally" enroll in Harvard.



I see medical care after a car crash as I see an abortion after an unintended pregnancy. You can fix it, or bleed.



On the contrary, actually. You can easily walk away from a car crash with a few bumps and scratches, however you can have your life ruined by an unexpected fetus.

"Good for the human species"? At this point, most certainly not. The last thing we need is a larger population. The more people we try to cram onto this planet, the worse life is going to be for all of us. So not, excessive reproduction at this point would actually be bad for the human species.



You again misinterpret my analogy. A car crash is like an unintentional pregnancy, not a child or a baby. Do you wish there were no unwanted pregnancies just as you wish there were no car crashes? I do.

Semantics...blah!

If you drive a car you could crash. If you have sex you could get pregnant. The only difference is that in the latter of the two scenarios, it could be considered a good thing by the recipient.

There. Narrowed down, point blank. The only other thing I can add is that for some women, pregnancy is like a car crash every time and no good can come of it. For others it may be different, but there is nothing wrong with giving a woman support when she has already chosen to abort an unwanted pregnancy.

Ther eis a way to get rid of unintended pregnancies, abortion. There is no need for a magic wand in that. If you get into a car crash it goes on your insurance, no one has to know a woman had an abortion her *premium* (someone insisting shell do it again) doesn't go up. We are tlaking about car crashes and ruining lives, not fender bender and inconviences.

The chances that a teen who had the potential to be a hravard grad gets pregnant and works at Macy's teh rest of her life is SLIM. NO ONE with that kind of ambition and potential would lose it all over an unintentional pregnancy. Thats my point. EIther you have the potential to be successful or you had the potential to be the average working person upon which yeah, mediocrity begets mediocrity and your chances would lower dramtically because nothing you have right now would possibly help you. Its the cycle of getting by vs the will to do much better. Homelessness, bankruptcy and near death hasn't stopped some of the riches people in the world, they'd laugh in your face if you thought a pregnancy would. If you lost your gentials in a car accident they're gone, no amount of ambition on your part would help you enjoy intercourse ever again. A woman can and many have bounced back from abortions and giving birth to unplanned children. Over 70% of the population in the US was not (emphasis on NOT) planned and some of them are rich and famous right now including the current President of the United States who made it his business to pass laws furthering women's rights (including equal pay and abortion). I mean I'm sure many of you would like a population in this country of 70% less or the world. There would be FAR less people on it than there are now but you'd also have to take away the contributions of those unintended people.

Considering most people dont regret, abuse, give up or abort their unintended pregnancies/babies the consensus is instead of getting rid of unintended pregnancies for all, allow birth control, elective sterilization, abortions, termination of parental rights and responsibilities and adoption for the pregnant women and an opt-out after birth for unintentional fathers. That fixes the problem completely. You lose consciousness in a car crash you probably wont get it back.

Its really not as slim as you think it is. Where is this girl going to get the money for Harvard? Where is she going to get the time to study? How will she be able to travel there if she lives elsewhere? Having a child is not gumdrops and rainbows for everyone.



Where the hell did you get that statistic? People aren't as stupid as they used to be. I would estimate that even 20% of the population being accidents is high.



I really want to know where you're getting these crazy statistics.

I will just get down to the point. Sure, unintended pregnancies can turn out to be a good thing in some people. Some people have happy families that consist of accidents. But, some people is not all people. Some people's lives are utterly ruined by an unwanted pregnancy, their dreams crushed. Who are you to say that all people will benefit or do fine after an unwanted pregnancy?

If she had the potential she'd have scholarships from Harvard or won them on her own. The determination to make it fierce. Adoption is ALWAYS an option. being pregnant, whether you abort, keep the baby, or give it up for adoption is not always the end of the world or some horrible thing. There was an instance of a HOMELESS girl going to Harvard, surely someone who wasn't orphaned and homeless and at one point failing school who just recently turned into a good student could do at least that much with getting in and getting scholarships. The academically elite never have problems getting scholarships sans blatant discrimination for things like gender, race or sexuality.




Google it. Unintended pregnancies has acocunted for more than half of all pregnancies for decades the current goal is to reach 30% in the next 10 years.





LOL How could it be "crazy" that most parents are sick demonic people going around hurting and maiming their children every chance they get? Or that people could actually love the children they create like their parents loved them?

But again I challenge you to do research. You argue without any evidence but your incredulous idea that most people bear children they'd just as soon throw in the trash can than raise. At least a million abortions occur every year in this country, even more miscarriages and much more are TRYING to get pregnant. The anti-baby/anti-child is a minority not a popular mentality.





I never said all pregnancies have happy endings, even wanted pregnancies end in abortions sometimes, ask some of Dr. Tiller's patients and they can tell you what a REAL life altering TRAIN wreck pregnancy can be and why. Simply not wanting a baby can be cured with an abortion, wanting one and carrying a child who will die, kill you, damage your health or is severely deformed is where real crisis comes in. Yours was simply, "dont wanna be pregnant, omg life is over!!!! " when there is a remedy that is for the most part readily available to ease her mind and physical situation. Its devastating to be in the situations many of Dr. Tiller's patients were in.

If you live in a part of the country where most people don't like abortion or are pro-life, chances of you finding a pro-choicer are slim, chances of findsing a pro-choicer who is also in a position to be the physician to perform an abortino on you are even less. Thats not government, that's you reaping the "benefit" of living in the midst of a bunch of pro-lifers. THAT can be a train wreck for many reasons long before anyone even becomes pregnant. But that's not the case with most.

Also most unintended pregnancies were entirely preventable by using or at least using correctly and consistantly contraceptives. During the month of conception MOST (80%) either failed to use a contraceptive altogether (yeah trying REALLY hard to prevent that pregnancy there) or had failed to use it consistantly. Less than 15% used it correctly or were forced into the act that resulted in conception.

http://ocw.jhsph.edu/courses/reproductivep erinatal/PDFs/Lecture9.pdf

Common sense would allow one to just glance at the rate of STD transmission in this country to know the likelihood of unintended pregnancy considering that you get an STD the same way you get pregnant-sex.

One girl? Is your evidence really that flimsy?



This speaks for itself.



Your information is completely and utterly false Do your homework next time before you get caught lying, again (big surprise).



Your argument sounded a lot like "all unwanted pregnancies are or will be a good thing".



Well, luckily I live in a place where people think with their brains and not with their bibles.




Essentially calling women with accidental pregnancies "stupid" is relevant how?

Ahh yes...the "stupid" factor. Because women NEVER get knocked up unless they want to, right? Excuse me while I vomiit.

Where in there did I say they were stupid? Its risky whenever there is an unattended pregnancy, most women endure domestic violence during pregnancy because the man is so against becoming a father he'd rather be a murderer or force an abortion on her.





One girl was an example of a young woman overcoming huge odds. Though there was no unintended pregnancy in her situation it was a bad situation that did not hinder her from going to Harvard. If you have the will you'll use it to find a way.






http://www.childhelp.org/resources/learnin g-center/statistics

http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm 07/summary.htm

Most children of abused are abused or killed by their mothers, in a mother headed household. When its a male its more than 3/4 of the time not the biologcal father of the child who abuses him/her. I have not sene a stat indictating whether this abuse was specific to unintended children or planned children. But if you read either report the number of reported incidents is about 6 million, he claim is that the real number is three times that so we'll say 18 million. However during that time there were over four times as many children in the country. In other words, the vast majority of children were NOT abused while way more than half were the result of unintended pregnancies that did not end in abortion or miscarriage.

So your fantasy that people *stuck* with unplanned children usually abuses them is flawed.



Its funny that you call me a liar, I think even less of you.




No my argument sounded like what it was, that not all unwanted pregnancies could be equated to a life ruining experience such as a negatively life altering car crash as you had stated earlier. Most of the US population was not planned/were accidents but those parents had mercy on them and did not abort or simply the mother was against having an abortion. An unwanted pregnancy can be ended by an abortion, when that option is not utilized it becomes an entirely different conversation.



Luckily for you, you're a man and thus have no right to a say or decision on a woman getting an abortion so it doesn't affect YOU. You may want to ensure anyone you knock up can get an abortion if she so chooses but it isn't your choice and would not be a procedure performed on you. So where you live is moot. There are people who are pro-life and atheist. We live in a country where people are not forced into doing things like performing abortions or any other medical procedure for another. If no one in Pro-Life,USA wants to perform an abortion than you can either move to a more progressive city/town/state or have to travel whenever you need those services.





I fail to see where in quotes I typed what you have accused me of typing...but that makes sense considering that you're lying and manipulating my post because that was the best response you could come up with. If YOU think a woman is stupid for not taking her BC pill every single day or for missing condom use etc then you should just say so and not try to hide behind the factual stats I posted.