If the so-called pro-lifers wanted to actually do something useful, perhaps they should start with the problem of women dying in childbirth. You know -- care about people who are already alive.
The US, for instance, has a digustingly high rate of death in childbirth, worse than virtually every other industrialised country. See this article in today's Guardian, citing World health Organisation data: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/1 2/amnesty-us-maternal-mortality-rates
The risk of a woman in the US dying in childbirth is 1 in 4,800. That might not seem too bad, but it is five times higher than in, say, Greece.
The article notes: "Women who are poor, who are African American, Native American or immigrants and those who do not speak English face serious barriers in obtaining care. One in four women do not get the antenatal check-ups they need, which can warn of pregnancy complications. Among African American and Native American women, one in three go without antenatal care."
So pro-life? Try starting with a campaign for universal health insurance.
The US, for instance, has a digustingly high rate of death in childbirth, worse than virtually every other industrialised country. See this article in today's Guardian, citing World health Organisation data: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/mar/1 2/amnesty-us-maternal-mortality-rates
The risk of a woman in the US dying in childbirth is 1 in 4,800. That might not seem too bad, but it is five times higher than in, say, Greece.
The article notes: "Women who are poor, who are African American, Native American or immigrants and those who do not speak English face serious barriers in obtaining care. One in four women do not get the antenatal check-ups they need, which can warn of pregnancy complications. Among African American and Native American women, one in three go without antenatal care."
So pro-life? Try starting with a campaign for universal health insurance.
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My, you sound bitter and angry again. It least you are consistant. Most of us prolifers ARE for universal health care without the abortion clause. Many of us are part of the medical community and see the need for universal health care daily. There is not a single one of us who want women to die during child birth OR due to abortion. We work to perserve and save human life, not destroy it prematurely. Dear, you really need to take off your blinders and let go of the hatred and anger and actually listen for a change. I don't mean that nastily but I do see attitudes like yours as a general problem esp on this board. It is amazing what you learn when you stop judging and open yourself up to listening.
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Yes, I am angry that rightwing loons want to shove their ignorant noses into things that don't concern them, and then try to claim that there is a conspiracy that is promoting abortion. That there are rightwing goons who think that not allowing information about, never mind access to, contraception is going to stop teenagers from having sex.
I don't understand where you are claiming I am expressing hatred. But then, you have a pretty weird way of viewing the world, from what I have read of your posts. It must be the pain from having your head so far up your own butt.
I don't understand where you are claiming I am expressing hatred. But then, you have a pretty weird way of viewing the world, from what I have read of your posts. It must be the pain from having your head so far up your own butt.
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My, my, my. As I said, you ARE consistant. 
Take a deep breath and actually read what you have written AND what I have written. Truthfully, I myself, and many prolifers have no problem with contraception and I, for one, have never hinted at a "conspiracy". Yet, you call me a "rightwing loon" and "ignorant" and a "rightwing goon" and told I have my "head so far up (my) butt". You don't see your posts as angry and ignorant? LOL! Case closed.
Take a deep breath and actually read what you have written AND what I have written. Truthfully, I myself, and many prolifers have no problem with contraception and I, for one, have never hinted at a "conspiracy". Yet, you call me a "rightwing loon" and "ignorant" and a "rightwing goon" and told I have my "head so far up (my) butt". You don't see your posts as angry and ignorant? LOL! Case closed.
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| Respect wrote: |
| My, my, my. As I said, you ARE consistant. Take a deep breath and actually read what you have written AND what I have written. Truthfully, I myself, and many prolifers have no problem with contraception and I, for one, have never hinted at a "conspiracy". Yet, you call me a "rightwing loon" and "ignorant" and a "rightwing goon" and told I have my "head so far up (my) butt". You don't see your posts as angry and ignorant? LOL! Case closed. |
This is not about YOU. Not everything is about you, specifically, much as you apparently believe it must be. Rather than debating the poster, and personlising everything that is written so that it is directed at your own precious self, perhaps you might try taking a slightly wider view of the issues?
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Its like pro-life not telling woman about post-partum depression and then telling us to deal with it after you give birth.
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| oopoopoop wrote: |
| This is not about YOU. Not everything is about you, specifically, much as you apparently believe it must be. Rather than debating the poster, and personlising everything that is written so that it is directed at your own precious self, perhaps you might try taking a slightly wider view of the issues? |
LOL! You are certifiable and funny too! Too bad you let your emotions get in the way of a possible good discussion. Just can't take what you say seriously. Shrug.
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| diamondsz wrote: |
| Its like pro-life not telling woman about post-partum depression and then telling us to deal with it after you give birth. |
Seriously, I don't know of any prolifer who denies post-partum depression. Some of us have actually had it. This is actually the first time I have even seen that "accusation". Reminds me of how "choicers" often deny PASS and I've, several times, seen "choicers" tell women suffering from PASS to "get over it 'cause you made your choice and had an abortion". No one should ever tell someone suffering and grieving to "get over it" or "deal with it". BTW, there is help for someone suffering from post-partum depression. Little harder to "get over" the thought that you killed your child and can't make them alive again.
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And if you die in childbirth, presto! no PP depression. Solved.
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| oopoopoop wrote: |
| And if you die in childbirth, presto! no PP depression. Solved. |
And if you die due to an abortion, no PASS. Solved TOO!
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| Respect wrote: | ||
And if you die due to an abortion, no PASS. Solved TOO! |
And of course, more women die as a result of childbirth than due to abortions.
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And, of course, you can give reliable stats and a reliable source for this statement?
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| Respect wrote: |
| And, of course, you can give reliable stats and a reliable source for this statement? |
The majority (62.0%) of abortions in 2006 were performed at â¤8 weeks' gestation; few abortions were performed at 16--20 weeks' gestation (3.7%) or at â¥21 weeks' gestation (1.3%). During 1997--2006, the percentage of abortions performed at â¤8 weeks' gestation increased 11.7%; this increase largely was accounted for by procedures performed at â¤6 weeks' gestation, which increased 66.3%. In 2006, the greatest percentage (87.6%) of abortions were performed by curettage (including vacuum aspiration, sharp curettage, and dilation and evacuation procedures), followed by medical (nonsurgical) abortion (10.6%).
Deaths of women associated with complications from abortions for 2006 are being investigated under CDC's Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System. In 2005, the most recent year for which data were available, seven women were reported to have died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortions. No reported deaths were associated with known illegal induced abortions.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/s s5808a1.htm?s_cid=ss5808a1_e
That is the most current abortion-related maternal death toll that the CDC has provided. Now lets compare that to the birth-related maternal death toll for the same year:
According to WHO, there were 440 deaths as a result of complications of childbirth/pregnancy, that is approx. 11 in 100,000 live births. (See page 27 on the PDF): http://www.who.int/whosis/mme_2005.pdf
To sum it up, for the year reported, until the CDC updates its stats, it stands that in the US, only 7 women died as a result of abortion, while 440 died as a result of complications during pregnancy or childbirth. Sources cited.
Deaths of women associated with complications from abortions for 2006 are being investigated under CDC's Pregnancy Mortality Surveillance System. In 2005, the most recent year for which data were available, seven women were reported to have died as a result of complications from known legal induced abortions. No reported deaths were associated with known illegal induced abortions.
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/s s5808a1.htm?s_cid=ss5808a1_e
That is the most current abortion-related maternal death toll that the CDC has provided. Now lets compare that to the birth-related maternal death toll for the same year:
According to WHO, there were 440 deaths as a result of complications of childbirth/pregnancy, that is approx. 11 in 100,000 live births. (See page 27 on the PDF): http://www.who.int/whosis/mme_2005.pdf
To sum it up, for the year reported, until the CDC updates its stats, it stands that in the US, only 7 women died as a result of abortion, while 440 died as a result of complications during pregnancy or childbirth. Sources cited.
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Incomplete data as you didn't mention the suicide rate of post abortive women. Oh right, they don't count.
http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/fin land.html
This link is also rather informative. http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/abo rtiondeaths.html
http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/fin land.html
This link is also rather informative. http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/abo rtiondeaths.html
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And murder is a (the?) leading cause of death of pregnant women. Not relevant, but fascinating nonetheless.
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| Respect wrote: |
| Incomplete data as you didn't mention the suicide rate of post abortive women. Oh right, they don't count. |
Suicide is a cause of death, it is not a death caused by an abortion procedure.
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| msrosie wrote: | ||
Suicide is a cause of death, it is not a death caused by an abortion procedure. |
Good point, or we could note the number of men and women who kill their infants, and cite childbirth as being a cause of homicide as well.
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People die. It happens all the time. Right now, zap! Five more, a hundred, just like that! Life has but ONE conclusion for all of us. I don't know why Respect is having such a hard time conceding that abortion is statistically safer than childbirth - well, actually I have an idea. However, I would implore her to STOP being so damn absolute all the time in her opinion about abortion. It's one thing to be firm in your position that it's wrong, but to refute and deny facts because they don't support your case is arrogant and irritating.
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| Respect wrote: |
| Incomplete data as you didn't mention the suicide rate of post abortive women. Oh right, they don't count.
http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/fin land.html This link is also rather informative. http://www.afterabortion.org/PAR/V8/n2/abo rtiondeaths.html |
Let me see you link the data on the rate of suicide of new mothers. Or the homicide rate of newborn babies. Or the rate of homicide on pregnant women. And the homicide rate of new mothers and their newborn babies. It is not inaccurate data. Oh, right, they don't count
I don't link biased websites, as they are often hyped up and full of fluff. I prefer to stick with sites that have no side.
I don't link biased websites, as they are often hyped up and full of fluff. I prefer to stick with sites that have no side.
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| motherofhighspiritedones wrote: |
| I don't link biased websites, as they are often hyped up and full of fluff. I prefer to stick with sites that have no side. |
I have to concur that the Center for Disease Control and the World Health Organization are more trustworthy sources of unbiased information than an obviously pro-life website. Don't worry, I wouldn't trust a militantly pro-choice site either. Like MOHSO implied, both sides of any passionate debate can be guilty of skewing statistics, if not lying outright.
I feel compelled to point out that of all the pro-life sites I've been to, afterabortion.org seems like the least offensive. The focus seems to be more on helping women get past the experience rather than damning them for what they've done. I do feel great compassion and righteous anger on behalf of women who were forced into abortion. It should always be a CHOICE - made by the mother alone - which is why I'm adamant that it be kept legal and readily available. Forcing women to give birth is no more righteous and moral than forcing them to have abortions.
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