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Debate Forums > Abortion Debate Forum > Article: The right to abort a Down's fetus (Page 1)
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Q: Article: The right to abort a Down's fetus
asked by: oopoopoop on November 26th, 2008
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In today's Guardian (I guess I can't post the link, but can be found at guardian dot co dot uk)

Pro-choice taboo
It doesn't make you a eugenicist to speak up for the right to abort a foetus that may have Down's

By Zoe Williams
This week it was shown that there were more children born in the United Kingdom last year with Down's syndrome than there were before the introduction of universal testing, 20 years ago. One of the reasons is more obvious than the other - fertility among women in their 30s outstripped that of those in their 20s for the first time in the UK during 2005. Mothers are getting older and that trend is continuing; with it the incidence of Down's syndrome increases. The more surprising aspect, I find, is that 40% of women who have a Down's syndrome baby having been advised of that strong possibility during pregnancy didn't believe the test results.

My worry is this: that the discursive space around the issue is taken up with pro-lifers rejoicing in this selfless social direction. Pro-choicers are silent on the matter. And yet 94% of people will abort when told that a foetus probably has the condition. This silence is turning these abortions into a dirty secret. This can't be allowed to happen - they are either defensible or they aren't.

The taboo is even more marked in the case of aborting for birth defects than it is with terminations generally. First off, you talk about "defects" and very soon the word "eugenics" is used, and images of Nazis spring up. Second, there is an unavoidable inference that if you are in favour of aborting Down's syndrome foetuses, you must therefore think that people with Down's syndrome are worthless. Why would you take such an unkind position?

Well, first of all, it's nothing to do with eugenics. Nobody aborts a Down's syndrome foetus because they want to create a society of perfect people. I also think that you would struggle to make the case that parents do it for their own convenience. They do it because they don't believe that life is so precious that it is worth it at any price. If you are pro-choice, you do not see the right to life as a trump card that obviates all other considerations. You ask questions about quality of life, and you bring to those questions your assessment of your own life.

Which brings us to point two: the argument for termination always falls silent in the face of people saying how happy Down's syndrome children are, how much joy they bring to their families and communities, how much greater are their opportunities these days - because people were prepared to have them and fight for them.

However, you don't have to dispute any of that to support a parent's decision in favour of termination. I am pro-abortion generally for women who get pregnant by accident and are not in a relationship - or at least not one that they want to stay in - and don't want to have a child on their own. That doesn't mean I think children of single mothers are worthless, that I wish they didn't exist, that I don't believe they bring anything to society. I deride the idea of adoption as a humane and viable alternative to abortion, but that doesn't mean I wish adopted people dead. I wouldn't in a million years judge a foetus on what it's going to bring to society, nor what it will cost. I don't believe doctors do either.

But nor would I judge a parent who decided against having a baby with Down's syndrome. You might conceive children for your own pleasure, but once they are out, parents are just there to marshal children to their own life, hoping that it's one of more pleasure than pain. If you think that you can do this under any conditions, that's a point of view; but if you think you can't, that is not a selfish attitude, and nor is it shaming, nor reckless, nor spineless. It's a mature decision, based on an even-eyed view of the world and life in it, and one that any pro-choicer should be proud to defend.
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nightangel73
replied on November 27th, 2008
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Down syndrome testing is not accurate so there is reason why women don't feel they would abort with having inacurate results. Particulary when you are older and your biological clock is ticking you don't have a lot of time to get pregnant in the first place. So you can't risk a chance of aborting a baby that most probably is okay.

I myself at 35 was advised of the risks and I refused blood work testing for Down's. I said to the doctor that I was not going to abort regardless if the baby comes with Down's. I did agreed on non invasive second level ultrasound to check the baby by the end of the first trimester but just so that I know if the baby was going to have extreme severe deformities. They did check for Down's syndrome signs in the ultrasound but the result still was not going to make me change mind about abortion.

It is understand that humans get frightened when they receive news that are not what they expect and so therefore many think they can't cope. But in reality you can cope, it's your just attitude that needs to change.

Why should we believe that Down syndrome people lives are not precious?
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NeutralUsername
replied on November 28th, 2008
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"Nobody aborts a Down's syndrome foetus because they want to create a society of perfect people."

They abort because they want a perfect child.

Hopefully, the healthy child they may finally have will never, ever become physically or mentally disabled in any way. These parents need to think more ahead. If they can't handle a child that will be born with a disability, how will they handle it if that child became disabled later?
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aochriss
replied on December 1st, 2008
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What happens to the children with Down's when their parents pass away?
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nightangel73
replied on December 1st, 2008
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aochriss wrote:
What happens to the children with Down's when their parents pass away?


The lifespan of Down syndrome children is about 40 years old. So typically parents outlive them. Parents are not the only ones who would look after someone with Downs, like in any other family, there is siblings, aunts, uncles etc that can look after them in the case parents pass away.
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oopoopoop
replied on December 1st, 2008
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What if someone does not want to look after this Downs person? I guess that makes them a baaaaaaaaaaad person?
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Birch
replied on December 1st, 2008
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nightangel73 wrote:


The lifespan of Down syndrome children is about 40 years old. So typically parents outlive them. Parents are not the only ones who would look after someone with Downs, like in any other family, there is siblings, aunts, uncles etc that can look after them in the case parents pass away.


It's about 49 now.
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nightangel73
replied on December 1st, 2008
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Birch wrote:
nightangel73 wrote:


The lifespan of Down syndrome children is about 40 years old. So typically parents outlive them. Parents are not the only ones who would look after someone with Downs, like in any other family, there is siblings, aunts, uncles etc that can look after them in the case parents pass away.


It's about 49 now.


That is good news. I guess with the advance in medicine their lifespans are going to keep increasing over the years.
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aochriss
replied on December 2nd, 2008
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I read this today and it mirrors how I feel:

"I know 2 families with kids with impaired mental facilies (one down, other I am not sure). I agree they have facilities, help, but I still shudder to think what would happen with the kid when they outlive their parents.

I did not have to make this agonizing decision, but if I did I would abort the baby. I have seen my cousin with down syndrome change from an agressive child to a happy teenager and even young adult to this really depressed adult as realization of her limitations have set in. I have seen my aunt and uncle go from determined optimism to this completely dejected outlook and constant worry for their daughter after they are gone. I have seen my cousin cry when a little 2 year old made fun of her. I cannot put a kid through this. I really feel abortion is more merciful than a half-lived life…. I agree you would grieve for this unborn child, but you would grieve more (and they would grieve with you) if you gave them life."
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motherofhighspiritedones
replied on December 2nd, 2008
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Well said, aochriss. I do want to note that I actually applaud some of the parents who bring children with disabilites into the world. That is if they FULLY understand the implications as well as fully acknowledge that they will be raising the child for the rest of their lives. I do not applaud those families who so desperatly want a baby that they would have it despite what they know about the disease inficted upon the child, despite acknowledging that they have made a life commitment to look after the child. And not the same life commitment I have made. After all, my children will be out of my house as soon as they know everything they need to know to succeed in life. Parents of children with Down's will have to either place their child in an independent living program (which I think is cruel...it just seems heartless to dump your child with the government assistance programs...after all, you made the choice to have it in the first place, you should take care of it)or look after it for the rest of their lives. But those who DO know what they are getting into, who do know what they will have to do for the rest of their lives, who accept this unconditionally, those are the ones I really applaud. It takes a HUGE feat of strength and self-sacrifice to raise a child with mental or physical disabilites. It is still my opinion that having a child is the most selfish yet selfless thing that a person can do. You want a child, so you have one. That is the selfish part. The selfless part is that you put that child first no matter what, at least the decent parents do.
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nightangel73
replied on December 2nd, 2008
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aochriss wrote:
I read this today and it mirrors how I feel:

"I know 2 families with kids with impaired mental facilies (one down, other I am not sure). I agree they have facilities, help, but I still shudder to think what would happen with the kid when they outlive their parents.

I did not have to make this agonizing decision, but if I did I would abort the baby. I have seen my cousin with down syndrome change from an agressive child to a happy teenager and even young adult to this really depressed adult as realization of her limitations have set in. I have seen my aunt and uncle go from determined optimism to this completely dejected outlook and constant worry for their daughter after they are gone. I have seen my cousin cry when a little 2 year old made fun of her. I cannot put a kid through this. I really feel abortion is more merciful than a half-lived life…. I agree you would grieve for this unborn child, but you would grieve more (and they would grieve with you) if you gave them life."


You should have not kids at all if this is what worries you. There is many millions of people suffering from depression, being bullied and such and they don't have Down's. So what will you do if your child is born "perfect" and then goes through depression, accident or sickness? So if you are not ready to face life with what it comes then better not have children.
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motherofhighspiritedones
replied on December 2nd, 2008
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Stop dictating NA, we have been through this OVER AND OVER. Let me turn the tables...what if your daughter got an STD because you refused to teach her anything but abstinence? IF YOU are not ready to face life and WHAT COMES WITH IT, including your DAUGHTER'S RIGHT TO HER BODY, to her choice, to know about how to protect herself, then better not have children.
Besides there is a DIFFERENCE in knowing that a fetus will DEFINITLY be born with a certian condition than an accident or developing something later on in life.
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nightangel73
replied on December 3rd, 2008
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motherofhighspiritedones wrote:
Stop dictating NA, we have been through this OVER AND OVER. Let me turn the tables...what if your daughter got an STD because you refused to teach her anything but abstinence? IF YOU are not ready to face life and WHAT COMES WITH IT, including your DAUGHTER'S RIGHT TO HER BODY, to her choice, to know about how to protect herself, then better not have children.
Besides there is a DIFFERENCE in knowing that a fetus will DEFINITLY be born with a certian condition than an accident or developing something later on in life.


I will tell her that actually to prevent STD's abstinence is the way to go. And I will tell her how easily you can get a STD.
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oopoopoop
replied on December 3rd, 2008
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Now y'see, the first reason I decided to remain childfree (I was about 9 or 10 years old) was because there was no way I would be able to deal with having a Down's or mentally disabled kid. There was a School for the Mentally Retarded (as they were known 35 years ago -- that was what it was officially called, sorry) near me, and we used to encounter the kids there regularly. I knew there was no way I would want to deal with that all the time.

So NA suggests that if you wouldn't accept a disabled kid, then you shouldn't have kids. She also says if you don't want kids, you shouldn't have sex.

It is so bizarrely presumptuous and intrusive of some odd person on their own little island of loveliness out there to tell me that, because I wouldn't want to have my life ruined by having to spend it looking after a mentally disabled child that I should never have sex. Weird. Sad and weird.
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NeutralUsername
replied on December 3rd, 2008
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aochriss wrote:
I read this today and it mirrors how I feel:

"I know 2 families with kids with impaired mental facilies (one down, other I am not sure). I agree they have facilities, help, but I still shudder to think what would happen with the kid when they outlive their parents.

I did not have to make this agonizing decision, but if I did I would abort the baby. I have seen my cousin with down syndrome change from an agressive child to a happy teenager and even young adult to this really depressed adult as realization of her limitations have set in. I have seen my aunt and uncle go from determined optimism to this completely dejected outlook and constant worry for their daughter after they are gone. I have seen my cousin cry when a little 2 year old made fun of her. I cannot put a kid through this. I really feel abortion is more merciful than a half-lived life…. I agree you would grieve for this unborn child, but you would grieve more (and they would grieve with you) if you gave them life."


Half-lived life? They would grieve with you? This is insulting to disabled people who ARE optimistic about their lives AND who contribute to society! Not all mentally disabled people are the same. Because they are PEOPLE. Even healthy people may feel depressed and wished they were never born.

The real problem are OTHERS who put down these disabled people. People need to be more tolerant and understand that if they look hard enough, these disabled people, like everyone else, have personalities and feelings. Kids at an early age should be taught to treat everyone with respect. These disabled people may know that they are different, but they shouldn't have to deal with mean people who have to remind them of that.
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NeutralUsername
replied on December 3rd, 2008
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motherofhighspiritedones wrote:
Well said, aochriss. I do want to note that I actually applaud some of the parents who bring children with disabilites into the world. That is if they FULLY understand the implications as well as fully acknowledge that they will be raising the child for the rest of their lives. I do not applaud those families who so desperatly want a baby that they would have it despite what they know about the disease inficted upon the child, despite acknowledging that they have made a life commitment to look after the child. And not the same life commitment I have made. After all, my children will be out of my house as soon as they know everything they need to know to succeed in life. Parents of children with Down's will have to either place their child in an independent living program (which I think is cruel...it just seems heartless to dump your child with the government assistance programs...after all, you made the choice to have it in the first place, you should take care of it)or look after it for the rest of their lives. But those who DO know what they are getting into, who do know what they will have to do for the rest of their lives, who accept this unconditionally, those are the ones I really applaud. It takes a HUGE feat of strength and self-sacrifice to raise a child with mental or physical disabilites. It is still my opinion that having a child is the most selfish yet selfless thing that a person can do. You want a child, so you have one. That is the selfish part. The selfless part is that you put that child first no matter what, at least the decent parents do.


Just because they decide not to kill their unborn child, that means they SHOULD take care of them through adulthood? Some families do need help and in some cases, there is only one parent. It seems wrong to say the parents would be heartless even after raising them as CHILDREN.
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nightangel73
replied on December 3rd, 2008
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oopoopoop wrote:


It is so bizarrely presumptuous and intrusive of some odd person on their own little island of loveliness out there to tell me that, because I wouldn't want to have my life ruined by having to spend it looking after a mentally disabled child that I should never have sex. Weird. Sad and weird.


Why would your life be ruined if you have to spend it looking after a mentally disabled child?


I never said that you shouldn't have sex if don't want kids. Just avoid getting pregnant. There is many choices including permanent solutions like tubal ligation and vasectomy.

I think what is sad is to miss out the joy of becoming a mother because of being afraid of having a disabled child.
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motherofhighspiritedones
replied on December 3rd, 2008
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She never said that the fear of having a disabled child is THE ONLY reason she does not want to be a mother. What I think is sad is all these women out there saying its sad when another woman does not wish to partake in the "joy" of procreation. Since when are we women so low on the human chain... to be compared to being "containers" and having the sole purpose of our lives summed up by how many children we wish to concieve or lackthereof?
Last time I checked, child birth/pregnancy does not make a woman who she is or what she is. I respect others' choice to procreate or not to.
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nightangel73
replied on December 4th, 2008
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motherofhighspiritedones wrote:
She never said that the fear of having a disabled child is THE ONLY reason she does not want to be a mother. What I think is sad is all these women out there saying its sad when another woman does not wish to partake in the "joy" of procreation. Since when are we women so low on the human chain... to be compared to being "containers" and having the sole purpose of our lives summed up by how many children we wish to concieve or lackthereof?
Last time I checked, child birth/pregnancy does not make a woman who she is or what she is. I respect others' choice to procreate or not to.


Anybody compares woman to containers, this is just an exagerated opinion of yours.
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AyaMiyaki
replied on December 4th, 2008
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Phlem has called women containers multiple times on this forum. Mother did not make that up or exaggerate that.
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