Abortion and the Catholic Church (Page 1)
I've often wondered how Catholics can reconcile their religion's message about the "sanctity of life" with the rivers of blood present in the Catholic history. This is a group of people who, in order to "establish" their faith as the One True Path to God, slaughtered the opposition in the most vicious manners imaginable. A few hundred years ago, they were willing to tie someone to a stake, surround them with kindling, and watch piously as the victim was burned alive in the name of God.
It seems to me that their message amounts to, "now that we've accomplished our goals of world domination through terrorism and death, we can afford to preach that innocent humans should never be killed to further someone else's agenda." How is this not the very definition of hypocrisy?
It seems to me that their message amounts to, "now that we've accomplished our goals of world domination through terrorism and death, we can afford to preach that innocent humans should never be killed to further someone else's agenda." How is this not the very definition of hypocrisy?
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First Helper Respect
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Dear Lord! I'm traumatized from reading this! But you are right. Everytime I hear the word Catholic it sends chills down my spine.
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The current Catholic church does not "establish" their faith as the "One True Path to God". I believe that is the "born again" christians and bible only faiths. Thoughout history there have been autrocities committed by man attributed to God. These are man's acts, not God's and not only Catholics. Look at religious terrorism today. Does that make everyone with middle eastern heritage a terrorist? You know, we could go on and on about historical and modern autrocities that have been or are being committed by those of faith and those of no faith. Somehow it has become pc to ridicule and discriminate against Catholics. Usually because of plain ignorance. I don't know a single Catholic who has tied anyone to the stake or burned them. I see that happening weekly verbally to anyone who practices the Catholic faith. Nice try though.
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Ignorance? I think not! I was raised Catholic, so I believe I know a thing or two about their history and dogma. I suppose one of the main reasons it's become "PC" to decry the Catholic Church is that they no longer have the authority to stretch people out on racks for doing so. If we'd just let them go back to trying people for heresy, they'd be treated a lot more fairly by heathen malcontents.
Let me get this straight - are you trying to defend the Catholic Church by suggesting that those who question (or even mock) them are the verbal equivalent of those who tied people up and set them on FIRE? You seem to be saying that since they don't do it anymore, we should just shut up and overlook that inconvenient historical fact. Ignoring the past is a very good way to ensure that it eventually gets repeated. Nice try, though.
Let me get this straight - are you trying to defend the Catholic Church by suggesting that those who question (or even mock) them are the verbal equivalent of those who tied people up and set them on FIRE? You seem to be saying that since they don't do it anymore, we should just shut up and overlook that inconvenient historical fact. Ignoring the past is a very good way to ensure that it eventually gets repeated. Nice try, though.
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Of course not but history is history and no one in modern society has to answer about what happened hundreds of years ago. By your reasoning everyone with German heritage is antisemetic and should answer for the Holocaust autrocities. LOL, so if it weren't pc to descriminate and hate Catholics then Catholics would go on a rampage burning people at the stake. I can see it now, out of control Catholics attacking their nonCatholic neighbors and friends, burning them at the stake! I am sorry you somehow got such a distorted and hated view of Catholics but we are just everyday people just like you. Secret: Please don't tell but if you tried to pick us out of a crowd, it wouldn't be easy as we look and act like everyone else. Except on Ash Wed that is 
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BTW, I am not ignoring the past, but I am not judging and attacking a whole group of people for a history they weren't a part of.
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BTW, I am not ignoring the past, but I am not judging and attacking a whole group of people for a history they weren't a part of.
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| Respect wrote: |
| By your reasoning everyone with German heritage is antisemetic and should answer for the Holocaust autrocities. |
No, but members of the Nazi party should answer for the Holocaust. I wouldn't buy the argument, "Well, I never hurt a Jew, so it doesn't make me a hateful person to venerate and follow people who did."
| Respect wrote: |
| I can see it now, out of control Catholics attacking their nonCatholic neighbors and friends, burning them at the stake! |
I can too - all I need is a history book. All sarcasm aside, I do believe that if the Catholic Church were still allowed to persecute people, they would. After all, they recently excommunicated a 10-year-old rape victim for getting an abortion, but didn't bother to sanction her father, who got her pregnant.
| Respect wrote: |
| BTW, I am not ignoring the past, but I am not judging and attacking a whole group of people for a history they weren't a part of. |
I'm not so much judging and attacking as I am questioning the "sanctity of life" sermon. Since the Church was willing to slaughter people in the past, I have a hard time buying that their abortion views are about saving lives and not about keeping women in their God-sanctioned roles as baby factories. To this day the Catholic Church considers women as inferior to men, which is why you don't see female priests.
Do you need me to provide a more current outrage to justify my contempt? OK, I've come prepared. How about all those priests who molested children? If you think you can't hold the actions of a few perverts against an entire organization, you'd almost be right. However, the Church STOOD BY those perverts and invoked their considerable power and authority to keep many of them out of jail. Many of them weren't even defrocked despite the damning testimony of DOZENS of children.
Therefore, if the Catholic Church is so concerned about the safety of children, how come they covered up for the priests who raped them? There have been documented cases of the Diocese harassing victims and their families by suggesting that they were doing the devil's work by refusing to "forgive" and let the incidents slide. Parents were told that pressing charges was un-Christian and they risked excommunication for undermining the authority and integrity of the Church.
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Protestants tied women up and burned them ALIVE during the Salem witch trials. Protestants thought the enslavement of black West Africans was God's will and most of the KKK that followed shortly after slavery was abolished were good ole Protestants.
We could start a library on the atrocities of Islam and on how some Indians (from the country of India) were treated by Buddhists and Hindu people simply because they were Muslim.
Religion has been teh rallying cry for the death of all kinds of people all over the world.
The beleif is based on the notion that the guilty should suffer and that unborn and born very small young children are innocents by default. Catholics are not the only one to hold this view on human life. The hypocrisy lies also on teh other end- people who think a man that shoves a hot curling iron into the genital orifice of a 23-month old baby girl should EVEN get jail time but if you dare not help perform an abortion may you rot in hell.
We could start a library on the atrocities of Islam and on how some Indians (from the country of India) were treated by Buddhists and Hindu people simply because they were Muslim.
Religion has been teh rallying cry for the death of all kinds of people all over the world.
The beleif is based on the notion that the guilty should suffer and that unborn and born very small young children are innocents by default. Catholics are not the only one to hold this view on human life. The hypocrisy lies also on teh other end- people who think a man that shoves a hot curling iron into the genital orifice of a 23-month old baby girl should EVEN get jail time but if you dare not help perform an abortion may you rot in hell.
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| DamianaRaven wrote: |
| After all, they recently excommunicated a 10-year-old rape victim for getting an abortion, but didn't bother to sanction her father, who got her pregnant. |
Upon further research, it's come to my attention that I'm wrong about that, at least in part. The girl's mother was excommunicated along with the medical team performing the abortion. (Children are exempt from excommunication.) Also, the girl was 9. However, the rapist is still in God's good graces, so yeah... color me unimpressed.
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| DamianaRaven wrote: |
| However, the rapist is still in God's good graces, so yeah... color me unimpressed. |
This most recent injustice is an example of what's so very, very wrong with organized religion. The deplorable discrimination against women and the injustices they advocate makes me sick to my stomach.
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Actually every religion is guilty of problems with child molestation and some like the Catholic church have and are failing to protect it's children.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/top 10/article/0,30583,1855948_1861760_1862212 ,00.html
There are many more sites if you do a search. The abuses in the Catholic Church stand out because those of the ones the media reports. Could it be the media doesn't think children of other denominations matter or is it just that it is acceptable to single out one religion? My guess is the later. Anyway, where there are human beings there will be abuse and violence unfortunantly. Human nature? The Catholics I know and worship with are kind, helpful people who live and worship as a community. God love them, they have helped me through some pretty tough times. They are no better and no worse than Lutherans, Methodists, Jewish, Baptists, Budists and all other groups of people. Condemning a whole group of people because of what some cruel zealots did hundreds of years ago is kinda amazing.
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/top 10/article/0,30583,1855948_1861760_1862212 ,00.html
There are many more sites if you do a search. The abuses in the Catholic Church stand out because those of the ones the media reports. Could it be the media doesn't think children of other denominations matter or is it just that it is acceptable to single out one religion? My guess is the later. Anyway, where there are human beings there will be abuse and violence unfortunantly. Human nature? The Catholics I know and worship with are kind, helpful people who live and worship as a community. God love them, they have helped me through some pretty tough times. They are no better and no worse than Lutherans, Methodists, Jewish, Baptists, Budists and all other groups of people. Condemning a whole group of people because of what some cruel zealots did hundreds of years ago is kinda amazing.
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Again, I must point out that I'm not "condemning" anyone, nor am I decrying the entire Catholic ideology. I'm saying that it's kind of hypocritical to build a religion on killing and bloodshed and then once it's safely established to howl about the injustice of abortion. Rather than persecuting anybody (seriously, get down off the cross) I'm suggesting that the Catholic prohibition of birth control and abortion might have a hidden agenda that has nothing to do with the protection of babies and the preservation of life.
As to the child molestation charges, I hope you realize how childish it sounds to suggest that I shouldn't hold the Catholic Church accountable for their complicity because "every religion is guilty of problems with child molestation." I guess that makes it OK, then? The reason that I single the Catholic Church out is not because the media told me they were bad. I point out their hypocrisy because they use that same evil platform (you know, the big bad MEDIA monster) to tell people that they're going to Hell for defying God's word - which, conveniently, they can quote verbatim. For those who think the "media" and TV in general unfairly bashes Catholics, I urge them to turn to EWTN (which is just as much a part of the media as Fox or any other heathen outlet) and see how just how cruelly the Catholic Church is being portrayed.
I'm not dogging on Catholicism because I think my religion is the right one. On the contrary, I have no religion because I think it's the epitome of arrogance to claim that any lowly human could know the will of God. Therefore, EVERY religion is (to some degree) flawed and full of itself. Some are better than others because they don't hold themselves up as the "One True Faith" or the "Only Path to Heaven." If I had to choose a religion, I would pick one that focused on personal growth and enlightenment rather than recruiting new "souls" and then telling them how they should live.
Finally, those accusing me of condemning their entire religion because I don't agree with it should get over themselves. To suggest that anyone who questions or decries a single Catholic tenet is a persecutor smacks of brainwashing and self-importance.
As to the child molestation charges, I hope you realize how childish it sounds to suggest that I shouldn't hold the Catholic Church accountable for their complicity because "every religion is guilty of problems with child molestation." I guess that makes it OK, then? The reason that I single the Catholic Church out is not because the media told me they were bad. I point out their hypocrisy because they use that same evil platform (you know, the big bad MEDIA monster) to tell people that they're going to Hell for defying God's word - which, conveniently, they can quote verbatim. For those who think the "media" and TV in general unfairly bashes Catholics, I urge them to turn to EWTN (which is just as much a part of the media as Fox or any other heathen outlet) and see how just how cruelly the Catholic Church is being portrayed.
I'm not dogging on Catholicism because I think my religion is the right one. On the contrary, I have no religion because I think it's the epitome of arrogance to claim that any lowly human could know the will of God. Therefore, EVERY religion is (to some degree) flawed and full of itself. Some are better than others because they don't hold themselves up as the "One True Faith" or the "Only Path to Heaven." If I had to choose a religion, I would pick one that focused on personal growth and enlightenment rather than recruiting new "souls" and then telling them how they should live.
Finally, those accusing me of condemning their entire religion because I don't agree with it should get over themselves. To suggest that anyone who questions or decries a single Catholic tenet is a persecutor smacks of brainwashing and self-importance.
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Of course the people involved in any kind of molestation and/or coverup should be held accountable. Never said they shouldn't. That said, when you mention "the Catholic Church" you are referring to the people who make up the Catholic Church which are regular ordinary people who also do not condone abuse. None of us are able to answer for the past, we can just live the present as best we can and respect for all human life is basic to the Catholic Church. If it was hundreds of years ago is something I can't argue because I was not there. Actally, christianity WAS based on bloodshed and violence through Christ's crucifiction and then the violent killing of christians. I also reiterate, no reasonalble Catholic thinks the Catholic faith is the only path to heaven. Heck, I have been told more than once that I am destined for hell BECAUSE I am Catholic. Yea, real nice but I usually look at the source and take it with a grain of salt. Catholics prohibit birthcontrol for their members and last I knew didn't force anyone to be or stay members. They also don't do body or home searches to find violators of this. Thinking the Catholic Church as a "hidden agenda" about bc and abortion is boardering on paranoia. What could this "hidden agenda" be?
Everyone has the right to question respectfully but too often I see unrespectful and nasty remarks about the Catholic faith/religion from choicers and prolifers. I don't like disrespectfull comment about ANY religion as it really is offensive.
Everyone has the right to question respectfully but too often I see unrespectful and nasty remarks about the Catholic faith/religion from choicers and prolifers. I don't like disrespectfull comment about ANY religion as it really is offensive.
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| Respect wrote: |
| What could this "hidden agenda" be? |
The inflation of their numbers. If Catholic women are allowed to use birth control and have abortions, there will naturally be fewer Catholics and the Church would lose power. Incidentally, when I speak of "The Church," I'm referring to its power infrastructure and not to the individuals blindly doing as they're told. There is an obvious advantage to the Catholic Church in keeping their women fertile and "productive."
I know full well that most Catholics are decent people who want to live their lives by the beautiful example set by Jesus Christ. This does not mean that the whole system is altruistic and above reproach. If you can concede that there's even the slightest corruption and evil in the ranks of your religion, how do you expect to ever eradicate it by getting defensive and deflective every time someone brings it up? Oh yes, you do! Comments like "other religions molest children too" and "most Catholics are nice people" are examples of deflective argument. It's an attempt to turn the conversation away from the matter at hand either by accusing others or by pointing out all the Catholics who DIDN'T molest children.
You may not be guilty of ever burning someone at the stake, but you are guilty of venerating and following the religious beliefs of those who did. Would you have any respect for a member of the Nazi party, or would you ask them WHY ON EARTH they would want to be even slightly associated with someone who did something so horrible, even if it's in the past? The passage of time does not magically set the wrong things right so I will ALWAYS ask Catholics how they can condone a religion that EVER thought it was OK to torture and kill people.
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Look, what I am saying I guess is it was not the religion that burned people at the stake or the religion that molested children, it was people who used the religion as a way to hide what they were doing. The Catholic religion was and is not based on hate and violence anymore than anyother religion. I am guilty of venerating and following religious beliefs that were abused by power hungry and hateful people during the dark ages. I am also of German ancestery but my German ancestery was there before Nazis. Just because we have the same origions does not mean I am also a Nazi or have the same hatred. Of course there is evil and curruption in the Catholic Church, there is in EVERY organization. That is not defending anyone but instead stating facts and the fact also is, it is acceptable to put down Catholics and our beliefs. The point is, every religion has leaders who abuse their power but somehow it is the Catholics who get the press.
I also find it hillarious that the Catholic "infrastructure" wants to increase power by increasing the Catholic numbers through birthing more children! And the thought that Catholics blindly do what they are told is even funnier! Snicker, HEADLINE, WORLD TAKEN OVER BY PREGNANT CATHOLIC WOMEN AND THEIR LARGE CALTHOLIC FAMILIES! Hey, that might not be so bad, can't be any worse than what we have in today's world... Everyone would have to eat fish on Fridays, drink loads of beer and play bingo for poultry in the church basesment!
I also find it hillarious that the Catholic "infrastructure" wants to increase power by increasing the Catholic numbers through birthing more children! And the thought that Catholics blindly do what they are told is even funnier! Snicker, HEADLINE, WORLD TAKEN OVER BY PREGNANT CATHOLIC WOMEN AND THEIR LARGE CALTHOLIC FAMILIES! Hey, that might not be so bad, can't be any worse than what we have in today's world... Everyone would have to eat fish on Fridays, drink loads of beer and play bingo for poultry in the church basesment!
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LOL, you make some good points and I appreciate the attempt at levity. The fact that you're dealing with my contempt patiently and even with a laugh or two is proof positive that not all Catholics are pious whackadoodles. Kudos to you for behaving like a lady and actually doing what Jesus might have done in the same situation. I can't fault you for defending your faith - it's as much your right as mocking it is mine. Peace?
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Peace! I have a whacky sense of humor, esp when it is late at night. I think we can agree to disagree but I hope, through me, you find most Catholics aren't pious whackadoodles. In fact, we are great partiers. Generally where you find a Catholic, you find lots of food and beer and a great party and we don't care who comes! Only religion around here that have a beer tent at church picnics, usually right next to the bingo tent! HEHEHE! gotta go to bed, I'm getting slap happy again!
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ok ok.. for the official record here is the website reference:
http://faculty.cua.edu/Pennington/Law111/C atholicHistory.htm
its a history, complete with biblography, of the catholic church and its stance on abortion.
http://faculty.cua.edu/Pennington/Law111/C atholicHistory.htm
its a history, complete with biblography, of the catholic church and its stance on abortion.
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Actually that site is opinion with very little factual information. How about a factual site:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega tions/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_1 9741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congrega tions/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_1 9741118_declaration-abortion_en.html
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| Respect wrote: |
| By your reasoning everyone with German heritage is antisemetic and should answer for the Holocaust autrocities. LOL, so if it weren't pc to descriminate and hate Catholics then Catholics would go on a rampage burning people at the stake. |
The Nazis actually practiced Christianity.....
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Any organized religion condones violence and killing of people but they determine when it is right or wrong.
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty."-Albert Einstein
He doesn't deny a higher power but he denies the concept of organized religion!
Basically religion doesn't allow space for other religions.
"I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation and is but a reflection of human frailty."-Albert Einstein
He doesn't deny a higher power but he denies the concept of organized religion!
Basically religion doesn't allow space for other religions.
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